Subject: The programming talent myth [LWN.net]

Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 18:58:20 +0200

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"PageHeadline">
<h1>The programming talent myth</h1>
</div>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"ArticleText">
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FeatureByline">
           By <b>Jake Edge</b><br>April 28, 2015
           <hr>
<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Archives/ConferenceByYear/#2015-PyCon">PyCon =
20=3D
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</div>
<p>
Jacob Kaplan-Moss is known for his work on Django but, as he would describe
in his <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://us.pycon.org/2015/">PyCon 2015</=
a>=3D
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ey=3D3D3D
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ny
think he had more to do with its creation than he actually did.  While his =
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
talk
ranged quite a bit, the theme covered something that software development
organizations=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9=
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pen so=3D3D
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roject=3D3D3D3D
s=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D
3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
3D94may be g=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rappling wit=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
h: a
myth about=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
developer performance and how it impacts the industry.  It was a
thought-provoking talk that was frequently punctuated by applause; these
are the kinds of issues that the Python community tries to confront head on=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
, so
the talk was aimed well.
</p>

<h4>Some background</h4>

<p>
Kaplan-Moss began by noting that he is a contributor to Django and the
director of security at Heroku.  He is a longtime PyCon attendee (eleven
years) as well as a regular speaker at the conference (ten years).  The
Python community means "more to me than anything in tech" and giving a
keynote at PyCon is "the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
highlight of my career", he said.
</p>

<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642205/">
<img src=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/images/2015/pycon-kaplan-moss-sm.jpg" border=
=3D
=3D3D3D3=3D3D
D3D3=3D3D3D
D3D3=3D3D3D3D
D3D3=3D3D3D3D3D
D0 h=3D3D3D3D3D3D
spac=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
e=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
3D5
align=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"right" alt=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"[Jacob Kaplan-Mo=
ss]"=3D
 tit=3D3D
le=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3=3D3D3D3D
D3D3D3=3D3D3D3D3D
D"Jaco=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b Kapl=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an-Mos=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
s" wid=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
th=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D247
height=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D260>
</a>

<p>
His first PyCon talk was in 2005 about a utility for bridging Python and
AppleScript.  At the same PyCon, which was held in Washington, DC,  Adrian
Holovaty gave a tech demo of some tools that were being used to build web
sites at the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas where they both worked.  Those tools are what
became Django.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
Now Django is ten years old and is used around the world, he said.  He has
watched PyCon go from 300 people to nearly 3000 and the community explode
with new people and growing diversity.  So "I really mean it" that the
keynote is "the apex of my professional career".
</p>

<p>
On the other hand, though, his main emotion there on the stage was
insecurity.  There is a voice that is telling him he does not belong on the
stage with the others he has shared it with; that he doesn't deserve the
success he has had. There is "a little hater" (in the words of <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.illdoctrine.com/">Jay Smooth</a> from =
a =3D
vi=3D3D
de=3D3D3D
o =3D3D3D3D
cl=3D3D3D3D3D
ip=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 t=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
hat
Kaplan-Moss played) in the back of his head telling him these things.
</p>

<p>
The "really insidious thing" about the little hater is that a
little bit of what he says is right.  That is not a "humble brag" or
false modesty on his part, he said, and there are things he has done that h=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
e is
"incredibly proud of".  In fact, there are things that he has done that do
make him feel=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
qualified to be on that stage, but they are probably not the things that the
audience is thinking about.
</p>

<p>
Many probably think he is giving a keynote because he is the "inventor of
Django", but that isn't at all the case.  Those who know a bit more about
how Django came to be might think of him as the "co-creator of Django", but
even that overstates things significantly.  He was actually hired to work
at the newspaper a year after  Holovaty and Simon Willison invented and
co-created Django.  "Really, I'm the guy who got hired to work on the thing
a year after it was already made", he said with a grin.
</p>

<p>
People assume that he is somehow responsible for the creation of Django
because he is an "incredible programmer"; that he is a "rock star" or a
"ninja" programmer=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
3D3D94=3D
or "wh=3D3D
atever=3D3D3D
 it is=3D3D3D3D
 that =3D3D3D3D3D
recrui=3D3D3D3D3D3D
ters a=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
re cal=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ling i=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
t these
days". People believe that he is successful because of his programming
skill.  But that simply isn't true: "I am, at best, an average
programmer", he said (with a slide that read "Hi, I'm Jacob, and I'm a
mediocre programmer.").
</p>

<h4>Running</h4>

<p>
He switched gears a bit, putting up a picture of ultramarathon runner <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Trason">Ann Tras=
on=3D
</=3D3D
a>=3D3D3D
, =3D3D3D3D
wh=3D3D3D3D3D
o =3D3D3D3D3D3D
is=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 t=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
he
most accomplished competitor in the history of that sport.  Ultramarathons
are runs that are longer than the 26 miles of a marathon; typically they
are run on trails requiring stream crossings and the hardest races can take
multiple days of continuous running to complete.  Distances for races are
generally 50-160km.
Trason has set multiple course records that still stand 10 or 20 years
later.  No one has come within an hour of some of her records, he said.  It
is hard to overstate how dominant and how exceptional Trason has been in
that sport.  He was talking about that because he recently finished
his first 50km race, which means he can call himself an ultra runner too.
</p>

<p>
He is, however, not anywhere close to Trason's league, but he does get to
wear the same label.  He is a mediocre runner, finishing 535th out of
around 1000.  There are lots of numbers that can be used to quantify his
performance: his pace, the distance and elevation change of the course, and
so on.  There is a site that calculates a "runner's score" that estimates
how close a runner's time will be to that of the winner of the race.  He is
around 68%=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
(which overstates things, he said), while Trason is 98.58% ("in other
words, she usually wins").
</p>

<p>
That gap is not particularly surprising.  If you plot a histogram of times
in a race (or runner's scores, etc.), you get a familiar curve:  the bell
curve or the <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm=
al=3D
_d=3D3D
is=3D3D3D
tr=3D3D3D3D
ib=3D3D3D3D3D
ut=3D3D3D3D3D3D
io=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
n"=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ormal distribution</a>.  Most people are average, while there are
a few that are either exceptionally good or bad in "the skinny ends of the
curve".=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
Almost every skill that we know how to measure ends up showing a
distribution that looks like that curve.
</p>

<h4>Mediocrity</h4>

<p>
When he said that he was a mediocre programmer, some in the audience
probably didn't believe him, he said.  Why is that?  The vast majority of
those in the audience have never actually worked with Kaplan-Moss, so why
would they assume his coding ability is exceptional?  In the absence of any
other data, people should assume that he is solidly in the middle of the
curve.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
Part of the problem there is the lack of a way to even measure coding
ability.  "We are infants in figuring out how to measure our ability to
produce software", he said.  What are our metrics?  Lines of code=3D3D3D3D3=
D3=3D
D3=3D3D
D3=3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D
DE=3D3D3D3D3D
2=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94w=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
hat does
that measure?  <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://agilefaq.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/what-is=
-a=3D
-s=3D3D
to=3D3D3D
ry=3D3D3D3D
-p=3D3D3D3D3D
oi=3D3D3D3D3D3D
nt=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/"=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>S=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
tory
points</a>?  "What even is a story point?", he wondered.
</p>

<p>
Programmers like to think they work in a field that is logical and
analytical, but the truth is that there is no way to even talk about
programming ability in a systematic way.  When humans don't have any data,
they make up stories, but those stories are simplistic and stereotyped.
So, we say that people "suck at programming" or that they "rock at
programming", without leaving any room for those in between.  Everyone is
either an amazing programmer or "a worthless use of a seat".
</p>

<p>
But that would mean that programming skill is somehow distributed on a
U-shaped curve.  Most people are at one end or the other, which doesn't
make much sense.  Presumably, people learn throughout their careers, so how
would they go from absolutely terrible to wonderful without traversing the
middle ground?   Since there are only two narratives possible, that is why
most people would place him in the "amazing programmer" bucket.  He is
associated with Django, which makes the crappy programmer label unlikely,
so people naturally choose the other.
</p>

<p>
But, if you could measure programming ability somehow, its curve would look
like the normal distribution.  Most people are average at most things.
This is not <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_=
Wo=3D
be=3D3D
go=3D3D3D
n"=3D3D3D3D
>L=3D3D3D3D3D
ake
Wobegon</a>, most people are not above average, he said.
</p>

<h4>A dangerous myth</h4>

<p>
This belief that programming ability fits into a bi-modal distribution
(i.e. U-shaped) is both "dangerous and a myth".  This myth sets up a world
where you can only program if you are a rock star or a ninja.  It is
actively harmful in that is keeping people from learning programming,
driving people=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
out of programming, and it is
preventing "most of the growth and the improvement we'd like to see", he sa=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
id
to a big round of applause.
</p>

<p>
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that by 2020 there will be a
1.5 million programming job gap, which means there will be that many jobs
unfilled.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
That's in five years.  The EU has published similar numbers, 1.2 million in
2018=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94three ye=
ars.  =3D
That m=3D3D
eans w=3D3D3D
e need=3D3D3D3D
 to be=3D3D3D3D3D
 doing=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 somet=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
hing t=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
o get =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
more
people into our industry.  But the myth is a filter that prevents people
from even considering programming as a career.
The myth is aided by the belief that programming is an innate talent that
people are born with.
Those who do not know how to write software and who believe in the myth
fall into a trap: thinking that their age has reached "30 or 20 or 15" (or
even 40 or 60, he=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
added later) and, because they haven't written any code yet, that means
that they never can or=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
will.
</p>

<p>
If the only options are to be amazing or terrible, it leads people to
believe they must be passionate about their career, that they must think
about programming every waking moment of their life.  If they take their
eye off the ball even for a minute, they will slide right from amazing to
terrible again.  That leads people to be working crazy hours at work, to
be constantly studying programming topics on their own time,
and so on.
</p>

<p>
But we don't believe these things about other activities.  Over half a
million people ran a marathon last year=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
3D3D=3D
80=3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3=3D3D3D
D3D3D3=3D3D3D3D
D94did=3D3D3D3D3D
 all o=3D3D3D3D3D3D
f them=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 have =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an inn=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ate talent
for running?  Kaplan-Moss doubts that they did; he didn't.  Most of those
people ran their marathon rather badly, but a tiny fraction ran theirs very
fast.  To be a runner, though, all it takes is a pair of shoes.  We don't
even believe that you have to particularly like running to be a runner.
</p>

<p>
Someone asked him what the best part of running the 50km race was;
"finishing" was his answer.  Running a marathon is difficult; it takes lots
of training and requires commitment and focus.  Is writing software=3D3D3D3=
D3=3D
D3=3D3D
D3=3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D3D
DE=3D3D3D3D3D3D
2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94writing
Python=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94harder=
 than =3D
runnin=3D3D
g a ma=3D3D3D
rathon=3D3D3D3D
?  "Wh=3D3D3D3D3D
y aren=3D3D3D3D3D3D
't the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
re hal=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
f a mi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
llion
people here today?", he asked.  We tell ourselves different stories about o=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ne
skill, coding, than we do for another, running.
</p>

<p>
He then gave an example of what this narrative can do to people.  At the
University of Kansas's
geographic information system (GIS) day a few years ago, he
sat in on a "fantastic
presentation" about predicting seasonal floods on the Kansas River.  The
student had used tools that should be familiar to many of those at PyCon: A=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
mazon
Web Services, Linux, PostgreSQL, Python, Django, <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://geodjango.org/">GeoDjango</a>, and so on.
Kaplan-Moss was hiring at
the time, and she (the student) had just written thousands of lines of Pyth=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
on, so he asked if she wanted to interview for his company. Her response
was that she couldn't do that, because she "was not really a programmer".
That came from a woman who had=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
just invented her own distributed GIS data processing pipeline, he said=3D3=
D3=3D
D3=3D3D
D3=3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
DE=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94but
she's not really a programmer.  That's because "programming is=3D3D3D3D3D3D=
3D=3D
3D=3D3D
3D=3D3D3D
20
something you are in this myth, not something you do".
</p>

<h4>Just skills to be learned</h4>

<p>
The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a
bunch of skills that can be learned.  Programming isn't even one thing,
though he had been talking about it as if it were; it requires all sorts of
skills and coding is just a small part of that.  Things like design,
communication, writing, and debugging are needed. Also, "we need to have at
least one person who understands Unicode", he said to laughter.
</p>

<p>
There are multiple independent skills, but we tend to assume that someone
is the minimum of their skill set.  Sure, you might be a good designer,
speak and write well, and be a great project manager, but you don't know
how a linked list works, so "get out of the building".  Like any other
skill, you can program professionally, occasionally, or as a hobby, as a
part-time job or a full-time job.  You can program badly, program well, or,
most likely, be an average programmer.
</p>

<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642207/">
<img src=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/images/2015/pycon-kaplan-moss2-sm.jpg" borde=
r=3D
=3D3D3D=3D3D
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3D0 =3D3D3D3D3D3D
hspa=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ce=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D5
align=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"left" alt=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"[Jacob Kaplan-Mos=
s]" =3D
titl=3D3D
e=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D
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n-Moss=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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h=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D232
height=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D260>
</a>

<p>
If we embrace this idea that "it's cool to be okay at these skills"=3D3D3D3=
D3=3D
D3=3D3D
D3=3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D
D3=3D3D3D3D3D
DE=3D3D3D3D3D3D
2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94that
being average is fine=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3=
D3D3D3=3D
D94it =3D3D
will m=3D3D3D
ake pr=3D3D3D3D
ogramm=3D3D3D3D3D
ing le=3D3D3D3D3D3D
ss int=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
imidat=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ing for
newcomers.  If the bar for success is set "at okay, rather than
exceptional", the bar seems a lot easier to clear for those new to the
community.   Even once we get people into the community, the talent myth
can haunt them=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
94it c=3D
an act=3D3D
ively =3D3D3D
drive =3D3D3D3D
people=3D3D3D3D3D
 out o=3D3D3D3D3D3D
f tech.
</p>

<p>
The tech industry is rife with sexism, racism, homophobia, and
discrimination.  It is a multi-faceted problem, and there isn't a single
cause, but the talent myth is part of the problem.  In our industry, we
recast the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
talent myth as "the myth of the brilliant asshole", he said.  This is the
"10x programmer" who is so good at his job that people have to work with
him even though his behavior is toxic.  In reality, given the normal
distribution, it's likely that these people aren't actually exceptional,
but even if you grant that they are, how many developers does a 10x
programmer have to drive away before it is a wash?
</p>

<p>
At that point, he added the famous picture of <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/201=
2/=3D
06=3D3D
/1=3D3D3D
9/=3D3D3D3D
li=3D3D3D3D3D
nu=3D3D3D3D3D3D
s-=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
to=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rv=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
alds-says-f-k-you-to-nvidia/">Linus
Torvalds flipping off NVIDIA</a> under the "brilliant asshole" label in his
slide.  While some might argue the context, it certainly struck a chord for
the people at the keynote as it was met with laughter and applause.
</p>

<h4>"Real programmers"</h4>

<p>
Kaplan-Moss then asked what a 10x programmer looked like and put up a
series of pictures of "Mark Zuckerberg".  The first was actually the actor =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
who
played Zuckerberg in <i>The Social Network</i> movie, while the second was
the Saturday Night Live cast member who satirized the actor in the movie.  =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
The
third actually was Zuckerberg.  All three were young white men, which is
the archetype of a "real programmer", he said.
</p>

<p>
When we see someone who does not look like one of those three men, we
assume they are not a real programmer, he said.  Almost all of the women he
knows in the industry have a story about someone assuming they aren't a
programmer.  He talked to multiple women attending PyCon 2015 who were
asked which guy they are there with=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
80=3D
=3D3D3D3D3=3D3D
D3D3D3=3D3D3D
D3D94t=3D3D3D3D
he onl=3D3D3D3D3D
y reas=3D3D3D3D3D3D
on the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
y woul=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
d come=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 is
because their partner, the man, is the programmer.  "If you're a dude, has
anyone ever asked you that?"
</p>

<p>
On the other hand, when he got up on stage, he did look like those guys.
"So you probably=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
assumed I was a real programmer."  These sorts of assumptions contribute to
the attrition of marginalized people in tech, he said.
</p>

<p>
He presented some numbers from the <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://www.ncwit.org/">National Center for Women=
 &=3D
am=3D3D
p;=3D3D3D
 I=3D3D3D3D
nf=3D3D3D3D3D
or=3D3D3D3D3D3D
ma=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ti=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
on
Technology</a> (NCWIT).  Half of women with Computer Science degrees are
not using those degrees as part of their employment. 40% of women leave
technology within ten years, while only 17% of men do.  Over half of women
leave the industry at the mid-point of their careers.
</p>

<p>
There are certainly other causes, he said, and wasn't implying that there
is only one root cause.  But imagine how frustrating it must be to be a wom=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an
with a decade of experience and have someone assume that she doesn't know w=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
hat
she is talking about.  It is going to take a serious effort to overcome the
diversity problem.  We are never going to get there if we can't come up
with a more nuanced way to think about what a programmer is=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3=
D3=3D
DE=3D3D
2=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D
3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D
3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D
80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94a=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nd what
programming skills really are.
</p>

<p>
There are all kinds of runners=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D=
3D3D3D=3D
3D3D3D=3D3D
3D3D94=3D3D3D
sprint=3D3D3D3D
ers, d=3D3D3D3D3D
istanc=3D3D3D3D3D3D
e runn=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ers, m=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
aratho=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ners,
etc.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94of all s=
hapes,=3D
 sizes=3D3D
, gend=3D3D3D
ers, a=3D3D3D3D
ges, a=3D3D3D3D3D
nd rac=3D3D3D3D3D3D
es.  A=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ll of =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
them h=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ave
different metrics for success and all are capable of being successful by th=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
eir
own metrics.  "We have got to find such a nuanced, shaded, interesting way =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
of
thinking about skill in tech," he said.
</p>

<p>
A conversation with Lynn Root at PyCon a number of years ago was the
genesis for his talk.  Root is a programmer, a founder of the San Francisco
chapter of <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.pyladies.com/">PyLadies<=
/a=3D
>,=3D3D
 a=3D3D3D
 <a
href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://www.python.org/psf/">Python Software Foun=
da=3D
ti=3D3D
on=3D3D3D
</=3D3D3D3D
a>=3D3D3D3D3D
 b=3D3D3D3D3D3D
oa=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rd
member, and has "been in and around this community for a while".  PyLadies
was fairly new at the time of the conversation and he was excited about the
energy, excitement, people, and skills that the group was bringing to the
table.  To Root he said "it's so great to see all of these bad-ass women
programmers". She agreed, but noted: "We'll know we've been really
successful when there are a whole bunch of average women programmers".
That too, was met with big applause.
</p>

<p>
The talent myth sets an "impossibly high bar for entry", he said, and the
fact that any of us are here at all "is kind of shocking given this myth". =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 It
needs to be dismantled and a community that recognizes that "average is
actually pretty awesome" should be be built in its place.  He is a mediocre
programmer and he invited others to join him; "together we can do our jobs
perfectly adequately".  Attendees gave Kaplan-Moss a standing ovation for
the keynote.
</p>

<p>
After that, he took questions, but he requested that people actually ask
questions, rather than to use the microphone as a way to "share their
opinion or to pontificate on what the speaker has said".  He said that he
is personally quite interested to hear those opinions, but that it should
be done in
email or on=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
Twitter, because sitting in the audience during these "non-questions" leads
to "frustration and anger".  Based on the applause for that, he is not the
only one to be annoyed by that behavior.
</p>

<p>
Several questioners also admitted to mediocrity in programming.  Questions
ranged from whether the security field is different with regard to the
talent myth (short answer, it is "even worse", which makes it that much
harder for people to enter that field), myths around the depth
vs. breadth of knowledge (it is part of the myth that people have to
"impossibly know everything about everything", there are roles for both
specialists and generalists), and how to get mediocre programmers to get
the courage to apply for these jobs ("I wish I knew the answer to that").
</p>

<p>
Perhaps the question he spent the most time answering was how to get these
ideas into the heads of the recruiters, venture capitalists, and others who=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 are
actually determining who gets brought into the community.  It is a
difficult question to answer, he said.  Part of it has to do with the
"crazy 60-hour weeks" that have come to be expected.  Companies need to
respect the idea of a work-life balance, with work weeks of 40 or 35 hours,=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 and
it is up to those who are in prominent positions to push their companies to
recognize that.  People should be able to do their jobs well, adequately,
that is, and be commended for that.  The same goes for working a healthy
schedule=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D94it s=
hould =3D
be com=3D3D
mended=3D3D3D
 as we=3D3D3D3D
ll.  W=3D3D3D3D3D
ith a =3D3D3D3D3D3D
1.5 mi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
llion =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
job gap
looming, companies that don't do so=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
may find themselves unable to fill the positions that they have.
</p>

[A <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3D3D3D3D3=
D3D3=3D
D3D3=3D3D
DhIJ=3D3D3D
dFxY=3D3D3D3D
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">Yo=3D3D3D3D3D3D
uTub=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
e vi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
deo<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/a>
of the keynote is available.]<hr width=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"60%" align=3D3D=
3D3D=3D
3D3D=3D3D
3D3D=3D3D3D
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"lef=3D3D3D3D3D
t">
           (<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://lwn.net/login?target=3D3D3=
D3D3=3D
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D3D3=3D3D3D
D3D/=3D3D3D3D
Arti=3D3D3D3D3D
cles=3D3D3D3D3D3D
/641=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
779/=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
">Lo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
g in</a> to post comments)
           <p>
          =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
</div> <!-- ArticleText -->
<p><a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comments"></a>

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642239"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 28, 2015 23:33 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(T=3D3D3D
ue=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
zo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nker</b> (subscriber, #7867)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642239/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Wow, I wish I'd been there for this. Looking forward to watching the video =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
- thanks for the coverage, great piece!<br>
</div>

  </div>
  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
    <form action=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642239/comment" method=3D3D=
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      <input type=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"submit" value=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"R=
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    </form>
  </div>
 =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
</div>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642256"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 3:05 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
We=3D3D3D
d)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>m=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
is=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
c</b> (subscriber, #73730)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642256/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
For the sake of completeness, the video is already uploaded on youtube:<br>
<p>
<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
3D3D=3D
3DhI=3D3D
JdFx=3D3D3D
YlEK=3D3D3D3D
E">h=3D3D3D3D3D
ttps=3D3D3D3D3D3D
://w=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ww.y=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
outu=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
be.com/watch?v=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DhIJdFxYlEKE</a><br>
<p>
And I can't help notice that comments were disabled on this video (not surp=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rising, and I can't blame the uploader for doing so)<br>
</div>

  </div>
  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
    <form action=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642256/comment" method=3D3D=
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    </form>
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</div>
</div>

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642268"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 6:24 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
We=3D3D3D
d)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>m=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ar=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
cH</b> (subscriber, #57642)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642268/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; But that would mean that =
pr=3D
og=3D3D
ra=3D3D3D
mm=3D3D3D3D
in=3D3D3D3D3D
g =3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
il=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
l =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
is somehow distributed on a U-shaped curve. Most people are at one end or t=
=3D
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
he other, which doesn't make much sense.</font><br>
<p>
It's a U-shaped curve... with two bell curves at each end. Programming is a=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
n art, which means it requires knowledge and discipline (like for any job),=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 but also some level of passion and creativity (unlike for repetitive jobs)=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
. Most of us have seen the ~10x productivity gap at the office between crea=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
tive people versus people just doing everything by the book. For instance, =
=3D
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
programmers with some level of passion and creativity continuously question=
=3D
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 what they are doing and how they are doing it, then refine and reinvent th=
=3D
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
eir own tools. Just that as a start is plenty enough to explain an 10x prod=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
uctivity increase.<br>
<p>
This gap is not even specific to programming; it's the same for any job whe=
=3D
=3D3D
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re creativity can make some difference.<br>
<p>
Sure there is a myth of the rock star programmer (people love having heroes=
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), but it's not like every programmer is average either. Like in many other=
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 jobs there is a big gap between employees who care and those who don't. I =
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think the gap is wider in programming because new tools can be created in t=
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he matter of days.<br>
<p>
PS: - passionate !=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D 60+ hours of work per week<br>
- passionate !=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D impossible to manage/work with<br>
<p>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 16:20 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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shesy</b> (subscriber, #74652)
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+1 cannot agree more. I guess it depends how mature the business is, in the=
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 fast-moving world of small-sized companies, I would rank creativity above =
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all, and the ability to continuously learn. No one can simply have the requ=
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ired knowledge for *any* worthwhile task; of course as basics one needs to =
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know algebra, statistics, C and one sane language (Python, Rust, ...). Rest=
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 of talent should be acquired during and while working on the designated ta=
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sk. But I agree, without passion, it is harder to learn as one gets older.<=
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br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:12 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>i=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nt=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
eralia</b> (subscriber, #26615)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; It's a U-shaped curve... =
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es at each end. Programming is an art</font><br>
<p>
Whatever this curve is measuring (talent, code quality, all-round ability e=
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tc.) it seems pretty unlikely that people aren't distributed in a bell curv=
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e. Of course people who are 3 standard deviations from the median will be i=
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nsanely better/worse - isn't that the equivalent of your U curve?<br>
<p>
I really doubt most people are actually incredibly good or incredibly bad. =
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A typical person might produce code that is "OK" (good/bad in parts) for a =
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problem of average complexity. It seems strange that people are talking abo=
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ut how good rock star programmers are but offering no reason why their usef=
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ulness disproves the assertion it's a bell curve.<br>
<p>
It's notable that many people think of programming as art (I agree). But ma=
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ybe it also means we judge other people's code (or our own) like an art or =
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film critic i.e. savagely. Just like programming, there are so many facets =
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by which films can be judged - direction, acting, story, lighting, music, e=
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diting etc. I don't think films are on a U-shaped curve either.<br>
<p>
This seems the same idea that YouTube videos which no longer have ratings, =
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because people give 1 stars or 5. That doesn't make mathematical sense, som=
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e videos must reasonably be 3 stars. Judging programmers is the same kind o=
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f judging towards the outlier, everything is awesome or terrible. I have de=
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finitely been guilty of this.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:21 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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AR=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #1313)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
The talent level of people may be distributed by a normal distribution, the=
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 value created by the people might not. I did see people creating negative =
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value (management insisted on hiring from a specific company, the coders th=
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ey've sent were so lousy that we practically had to assign someone to fix t=
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heir code, so in the end we were having less resources), also did see peopl=
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e creating as much value as other 10. The recruiters are obviously looking =
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for the later type.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 14:22 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
selm</b> (subscriber, #2796)
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    </p>
    <p>
The problem with this is that it is very difficult for a recruiter to figur=
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e out whether somebody will be an asset or a liability in the concrete posi=
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tion that they try to fill. For example, a super-productive =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
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rock s=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
tar=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9D programm=
er wit=3D
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t they may get lots of code done, but also a liability because of the caust=
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ic effects they may have on the rest of the team/company/client relations. =
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In the end it might be better to find someone who is less of a =3D3D3D3D3D3=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9Croc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
k star=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9D but b=
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</p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 14:46 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(T=3D3D3D
hu=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
NA=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
R</b> (subscriber, #1313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642584/">Link</a>]
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Interestingly the "rock star" programmers I've met were usually friendly an=
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d easy to work with. I've felt more unpleasantness from manager-types (who =
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should have people skills) than from "rock stars". Actually the stereotype =
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
(great programmer is an asshole) seems over hyped to me (or it was just me =
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=3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
being fortunate with colleagues).<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 0:36 UT=
C =3D
(F=3D3D
ri=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sj=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
j<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (subscriber, #2020)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642733/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I despise the whole "rock star" label. The whole metaphor is wrong - it mak=
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es young smart guys (always guys) want to be Bonos when they should be tryi=
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ng to be Ringo Starrs (the person who makes the team gell, works well with =
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
both prima donnas and roadies).<br>
<p>
Somebody who is very smart and truly accomplished is usually easier to work=
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 with than the guy in the next cube who *thinks* he is a rock star. I've ha=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
d the bad luck of meeting a bunch of these (mostly sysadmins). They play th=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
e asshole genius stereotype to the max to gullible HR and management types.=
=3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 They constantly proclaim their superiority to anybody within hearing dista=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nce. I've actually seen a guy I worked with describe himself as a Rock Star=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 in his own LinkedIn profile. Yeah right.<br>
<p>
<p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 8:28 UT=
C =3D
(F=3D3D
ri=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
se=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lm</b> (subscriber, #2796)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642807/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote><em>
I've actually seen a guy I worked with describe himself as a Rock Star in h=
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=3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
is own LinkedIn profile. Yeah right.
</em></blockquote>
<p>
There is an iron rule in hacker circles that says you don't get to unilater=
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ally declare yourself a =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D=
3D3D3D=3D
3D3D9C=3D3D
hacker=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3=3D3D3D3D
D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9D =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9=3D3D3D3D3D3D=
3D3D
3 it is an honour =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
that others bestow on you. The same would presumably apply to labels like =
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9Crock star=3D=
3D3D3D3D=3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D9D.
</p>
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  <p>
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    <form action=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642807/comment" method=3D3D=
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 1:24 UT=
C =3D
(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
al=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
le=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sfresser</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #216)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642948/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
That seems like the rule that whoever wants to be president probably should=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
n't be.<br>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642742"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 0:58 UT=
C =3D
(F=3D3D
ri=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rg=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
mo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ore</b> (subscriber, #75)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642742/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote>The problem with this is that it is very difficult for a re=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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cruiter to figure out whether somebody will be an asset or a liability in t=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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he concrete position that they try to fill.</blockquote>

<p>It seems to me that the grandparent's comment about management telling t=
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hem to hire programmers from a specific company only to discover they were =
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adding nothing might even be an example of this.  I doubt management wanted=
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 people from that company because they were intent on wasting money; they p=
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resumably expected those programmers to be great.  Instead, they failed to =
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produce. =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20

<p>It seems to me that this is a potential advantage for people hiring in F=
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OSS.  In that case, you may well be hiring somebody not based on their gene=
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ral reputation but for their specific expertise with exactly what you want =
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them to work on.  It seems like it would take a lot of guesswork out of hir=
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ing.
  </div>
  <p>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 11:48 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Sa=3D3D3D
t)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>p=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
bo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nzini</b> (subscriber, #60935)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642963/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;  I really doubt most peop=
le=3D
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re=3D3D3D
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ua=3D3D3D3D3D3D
ll=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
y =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
in=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
credibly good or incredibly bad. </font><br>
<p>
I think it's not too rare to see bimodal curves. For example I think it's p=
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retty much common to break people into "can't draw" and "can draw".  There =
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are few people who can't draw a stick figure and few Picassos, but if I had=
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 to guess the distribution of "how good can people draw?" I would say it's =
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bimodal (made of two, somewhat overlapping, normal curves).<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643005"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 3, 2015 10:05 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Su=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
in=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
er</b> (subscriber, #26151)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643005/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
In an attempt to bring some facts to the discussion I did a 5 minute Google=
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 search on the topic. It seems like drawing like so many occupations is mos=
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tly a matter of practice:<br>
<p>
<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article=
-2=3D
13=3D3D
48=3D3D3D
98=3D3D3D3D
/M=3D3D3D3D3D
ys=3D3D3D3D3D3D
te=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ry=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
-p=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
eople-good-drawing-arent-revealed.html">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet=
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ech/article-2134898/My...</a><br>
<p>
This is not the only source I found claiming this. From personal experience=
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, I've always believed, that I simply cannot draw, so I've never really tri=
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ed it either. Until I started doing free hand UI mockups on paper and disco=
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vered, that they actually look quite ok. So I wonder, what I could do with =
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a little more practice.<br>
<p>
On programming, I really think most programmers are closer to average than =
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to one of the extremes. And team members where I wasn't sure if they would =
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become good programmers have become quite good.<br>
</div>

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  <p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 0:36 UT=
C =3D
(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
Wo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
l<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (guest, #4433)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643746/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
>From the music world, "the typical child prodigy has done more practice by=
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the age of eleven, than the average person does in a lifetime".<br>
<p>
And, don't know the link to the paper, but it looked at students at The Roy=
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al School of Music or The Academy of Music (we have two such schools in Lon=
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don). They looked at all the students, and found that their skill levels bo=
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re very little correlation with the amount of practice they were doing. BUT=
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.<br>
<p>
Once they looked at when the students started playing, and how hard they'd =
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practised over their entire playing "career", there was a very strong corre=
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lation with how good they were.<br>
<p>
(For the record, practice was defined not as just playing, but as "working =
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at improving something you couldn't do (well)". And sadly, for the second r=
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ankers, they also came to the following conclusion - "to convert a second-r=
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anker into a front-ranker, they need to do an extra hour's practice a day f=
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or five years. But they're already practising on the verge of burn-out, any=
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 more will tip them over the edge".)<br>
<p>
So if you want one of those "rock-star" programmers, you need to find someo=
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ne who's been programming for fun since childhood ...<br>
<p>
Cheers,<br>
Wol<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 7:11 U=
TC=3D
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d)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>i=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
bu=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
kanov</b> (subscriber, #3942)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642274/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I suspect one of the reasons contributing to the talent myth is that the ta=
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lent is a transient thing. Skills are very specific. When by a chance skill=
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s match the environment/task perfectly, one can easily be 10 times more pro=
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ductive. Change the task or environment, and the same skills translate into=
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 performance that is no meaningfully better than average. However people re=
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member that brilliant work and will assume that the person got a talent tha=
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t applies in each situation.<br>
<p>
In [1] Google's VP of people operations described that they could not find =
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any correlation between student grades and job performance after a year aft=
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er finishing the education. For this reason Google stopped asking about gra=
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des during interviews. Similarly they stopped asking those puzzle-like ques=
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tions to test how "smart" are people. The talent of answering to those is a=
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lso uncorrelated with how good people at the job unless the job entirely co=
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nsists of quickly answering quiz questions. <br>
<p>
[1] - <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/busine=
ss=3D
/i=3D3D
n-=3D3D3D
he=3D3D3D3D
ad=3D3D3D3D3D
-h=3D3D3D3D3D3D
un=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ti=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ng=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html?partner=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3Dsocia=
lf=3D
lo=3D3D
w&=3D3D3D
am=3D3D3D3D
p;=3D3D3D3D3D
sm=3D3D3D3D3D3D
id=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3Dt=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
w-nytimesbusiness&amp;_r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D0">http://www.nytimes.com/2013=
/0=3D
6/=3D3D
20=3D3D3D
/b=3D3D3D3D
us=3D3D3D3D3D
in=3D3D3D3D3D3D
es=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
s/=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
in=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
-head-huntin...</a><br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642489"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 2:57 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Th=3D3D3D
u)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
cm=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642489/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
The talent involved is picking up new skills quickly.<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642910"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 19:29 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Fr=3D3D3D
i)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
av=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
en667</b> (subscriber, #5198)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642910/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Right but that talent in practice on the job seemed to be uncorrelated with=
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 the ability of an interviewee to answer a pop quiz, whether the interviewe=
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e did well or poorly on those kinds of questions didn't predict whether the=
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y were good at their jobs so they are useless for screening.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 19:46 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Tu=3D3D3D
e)=3D3D3D3D
 b=3D3D3D3D3D
y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ix=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #2304)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643243/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I'm not sure it is. I'm very slow at picking up arbitrary new skills: I ten=
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d to need a lot of time and a lot of sleep, and am quite likely to forget t=
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he lot. What I *can* do is almost never forget anything in an area I *have*=
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 picked up (and am interested in), and rapidly correlate anything I do mana=
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ge to learn with what I know (and if I manage to do that, I won't forget it=
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). More generally, most adults are bad at picking up arbitrary new skills q=
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uickly -- if you want *that*, find a young child, they're information spong=
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es.<br>
<p>
I think the talent needed is picking up skills *related to your existing ex=
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perience base* quickly, not arbitrary new skills. This is, of course, a tal=
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ent of wide general utility, and is in general why older people aren't wors=
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e at everything than younger ones despite the loss of cognitive reserve -- =
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for many years the increased experience base more than makes up for it.<br>
<p>
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  <p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 10, 2015 8:32 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Su=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
cm=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643837/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I bow before superior analysis.<br>
</div>

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:22 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
We=3D3D3D
d)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #30627)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642283/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I'd like to see a debate between this guy and his supporters and the Netfli=
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x "we fire everyone who's not above average" people.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 19:26 U=
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denshi</b> (guest, #102354)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643167/">Link</a>]
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
The thing I find interesting about Netflix's hard line is, what determines =
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"above average"? If they have, say, 2000 employees, then they fire anyone a=
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verage or below, in theory they just fired 1001 of their employees. Now out=
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 of those 999 left, they suddenly have a new average, and they would have t=
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o fire another 500 to meet their new quota.<br>
<p>
I realize it's not that simple, but I think it's more of a hiring tactic th=
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an anything else. Anyone with the slightest hint of self-doubt won't even b=
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other applying to Netflix or responding to their recruiters, and they end u=
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p with only Alpha-types who can both demonstrate their talent and feel good=
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 about their abilities. In some ways that's a good thing, but it also seems=
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 to me that they end up weeding out more empathetic potential employees. A =
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large company like Netflix might be able to get by with a bunch of "brogram=
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mer" types for a while, but eventually they will need the fresh perspective=
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 of someone who doesn't see the world the same way they all do. Unfortunate=
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ly, that personality type doesn't fit in with the "we're all rock stars and=
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 you all suck!" attitude they put forth.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643179"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 23:42 U=
TC=3D
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>v=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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o</b> (subscriber, #7872)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643179/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Good sodding grief... you are trying to derive profound sociological conclu=
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sions from an obvious employee motivation specialist bullshit line, pardon =
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the redundance.  Of the "your employer trusts and values you; the pride for=
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 belonging to Our Insanely Great Team(tm) should serve as a compensation" v=
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ariety.  Sane reaction is to roll your eyes (when out of eye contact with s=
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aid BS artist) and ignore it, same as when given an equally worthless boile=
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rplate tokens of appreciation.  And above everything else, do not let it af=
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fect your judgement regarding your worth, or that of your coworkers and emp=
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loyers.  In any direction.<br>
<p>
The theory is obvious; I don't know if it's taught to MBA in that form, but=
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 basically it goes like that<br>
<p>
* employee's degree of satisfaction affects its productivity and should be =
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considered as an investment.<br>
* optimizing return on investment is a good practice.<br>
* replacing the costly investment with cheaper alternative that gives an eq=
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uivalent output is a good practice.<br>
* telling the mark that it is special greatly increases its gullibility; an=
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y successful scammer knows that.<br>
* once upon a time an engraved watch used to serve as demonstration that co=
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workers and management remember and value the recipient.  These days a plas=
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tic paperweight with inscription on it demonstrates that a script ran from =
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crontab over HR database has put the recipient's name and address into mont=
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hly (or quarterly) bulk order form.  However, it still counts as a token of=
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 appreciation, and that's what matters.<br>
* attaching "... because you work here" to "you are special" (see above) im=
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proves loyalty and you can't overdo that - the people who will roll their e=
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yes at over-the-top bullshit won't take you serious anyway.  And it demonst=
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rates your worth to upper management.<br>
<p>
No matter where you go, these pests are inevitable.  Anywhere, including th=
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e job of burger-flipper in McDogfood, janitor in railroad station WCs, etc.=
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  As well as really wonderful jobs in great places.  Learn to recognize the=
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 noise for what it is and filter it out; it's nothing personal, they are ju=
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st taught that way...<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor644183"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 13, 2015 13:18 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ka=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
idenshi</b> (guest, #102354)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/644183/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
"Good sodding grief... you are trying to derive profound sociological concl=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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usions from an obvious employee motivation specialist bullshit line"<br>
<p>
I thought it was obvious that I saw it for the BS it was, when I said "I th=
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ink it's more of a hiring tactic than anything else". Nothing profound abou=
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t it, and no need to be so hostile about it.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor644186"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 13, 2015 13:36 =
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ro</b> (subscriber, #7872)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/644186/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I sincerely doubt that it affects the distribution of personality traits in=
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 the people they are hiring (or has any effect on the reality, for that mat=
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ter).  As for hostility... IMO that kind of PR folks are waste of what coul=
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d've been functional human beings, but that's (chronic) disappointment, not=
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 hostility...<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:23 U=
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</b> (subscriber, #30627)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Also, you don't need shoes.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 18:01 =
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thstuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
But you should have a towel.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:37 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ib=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ukanov</b> (subscriber, #3942)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I suppose this is some cultural reference. Could you hint it? Is it related=
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 to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as the comment above implies?<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 20:20 =
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onson</b> (subscriber, #4806)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Just an article reference: "to be a runner, though, all it takes is a pair =
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of shoes."<br>
<p>
Shoes may be unnecessary but you will need a computer.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 22:41 =
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m</b> (subscriber, #165)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Cue the Disney classic "The Computer Who Wore Tennis Shoes". But until ~195=
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0, computers mostly wore pumps.<br>
<p>
It's not true that all you need to be a marathoner is shoes.  Far more impo=
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rtant, and limiting, is the luxury of spare time.  After that, disposable c=
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alories. Shoes rank third.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 2:34 U=
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gerd</b> (subscriber, #58896)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Far more important, and l=
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xury of spare time. </font><br>
<p>
I commute several days a week by running.  It saves a shit-tonne of money, =
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and substitutes sitting on a bus or in traffic for something a great deal h=
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ealthier.  So no, it's not really a luxury-of-spare-time thing.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 11:23 U=
TC=3D
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0</b> (subscriber, #80670)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
In that case it's the luxury of having a shower at work, which I've only ev=
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er seen at the EvilRichCorp I worked for a while.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 9:24 UT=
C =3D
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at=3D3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ro=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
c<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (subscriber, #30627)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642959/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Or, you could just run home.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 20:14 U=
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>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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gerd</b> (subscriber, #58896)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642984/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Plenty of blue-collar jobs have showers, from personal experience.<br>
<p>
You're really, really reaching for why it's all too hard.<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 12:16 U=
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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pfire</b> (subscriber, #26138)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
It probably also means you aren't afraid of getting cancer through running =
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along traffic-heavy highways.<br>
<p>
It so happens that for some of us the distance is non-trivial.<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 15:42 U=
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elm</b> (subscriber, #2796)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642977/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote><em>It probably also means you aren't afraid of getting can=
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cer through running along traffic-heavy highways.</em></blockquote>
<p>
Who knows? Even if the shortest car route is a motorway, a reasonable runni=
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ng route might go along a forest track.
</p>
<blockquote><em>It so happens that for some of us the distance is non-trivi=
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al.</em></blockquote>
<p>
That's a more reasonable objection. I work from home most of the time but f=
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rom here to the office would be a 30-km run, one way, including crossing a =
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major river. Doing it by bike might be a more reasonable proposition.
</p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 16:22 U=
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>S=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
es=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
se</b> (subscriber, #53779)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642978/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Exercise is a net positive even if there's pollution. (Source: <a href=3D3D=
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"h=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ttp://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1408698/">http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1408698/</a>)<br>
<p>
Obviously it's better to run in non-polluted areas, but you shouldn't be af=
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raid of exercising just because your best alternative is in a city.<br>
</div>

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 16:36 U=
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nson</b> (subscriber, #4806)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; also means you aren't afr=
ai=3D
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cer through running along traffic-heavy highways</font><br>
<p>
Isn't driving along traffic-heavy highways just as bad?<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 3, 2015 23:10 U=
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affedata</b> (subscriber, #1954)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643037/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote>
Isn't driving along traffic-heavy highways just as bad?
</blockquote>
<p>
You breathe considerably less air during a 5K drive than during a 5K run.

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 10:01 U=
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lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643065/">Link</a>]
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
If you're sitting in your car, stuck tail-pipe to air intakes in jams, you =
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may be exposed to much more pollution than the runner taking the trails, fo=
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otpaths and pavement though. Or the cyclist, who sits much higher than car =
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occupants.<br>
<p>
For peak time commuting, both the runner and the cyclist may well spend muc=
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h less time in the the congested jams than 4+ wheel vehicle occupants.<br>
</div>

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 0:42 UT=
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(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
Wo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
l<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (guest, #4433)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I remember a very recent story that said 90% of pollution suffered by car o=
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ccupants occurred in the 2-3% of time they spent stuck at traffic lights.<b=
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r>
<p>
So a cyclist or runner will avoid most of it.<br>
<p>
Cheers,<br>
Wol<br>
</div>

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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642986"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 20:16 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Sa=3D3D3D
t)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
od=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
gerd</b> (subscriber, #58896)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642986/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;  It probably also means y=
ou=3D
 a=3D3D
re=3D3D3D
n'=3D3D3D3D
t =3D3D3D3D3D
af=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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id=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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f getting cancer through running along traffic-heavy highways.</font><br>
<p>
I can't help you if you're a Daily Mail reader who's afraid everything will=
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 give you cancer.<br>
</div>

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  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:46 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Th=3D3D3D
u)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #30627)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642486/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Just that it's possible to run marathons barefoot.<br>
</div>

  </div>
  <p>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642282"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:37 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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d)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>t=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ia=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
laramex</b> (subscriber, #21167)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642282/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Also, "we need to have at=
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ea=3D3D
st=3D3D3D
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ne=3D3D3D3D3D
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er=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
so=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
n =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
who understands Unicode", he said to laughter. </font><br>
<p>
I am not laughing.<br>
<p>
Just to give me some sense, how many people here /actually/ thought Jacob K=
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aplan-Moss was a "rock star" or "ninja" programmer before this speech ? My =
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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impression of Django was much like for Tapestry, or any of dozens of other =
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
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such frameworks. They're better than nothing, but not always much better. T=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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hat's some pretty faint praise.<br>
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  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642303"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 11:45 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ba=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
llombe</b> (subscriber, #9523)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642303/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Maybe Django is the perfect tool for the "average" programmer.<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 15:27 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ep=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
a</b> (subscriber, #39769)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642357/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote>My impression of Django was much like for Tapestry, or any =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
of dozens of other such frameworks. They're better than nothing, but not al=
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ways much better.</blockquote>Please try getting a completely random progra=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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mmer from a job site and asking them to make a framework.  The odds are fai=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rly small you will get a result that's better than nothing.
  </div>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 16:06 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
da=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
shesy</b> (subscriber, #74652)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642379/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
juxtaposition of talent behind django and Linux is amusing however.<br>
</div>

  </div>
  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
    <form action=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642379/comment" method=3D3D=
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642428"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:53 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
re=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ubenhwk</b> (subscriber, #75803)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642428/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    Most people's understanding of unicode is something like this...

<pre>
char ascii[100];
unsigned short unicode[100];
for (i =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D 0; i &lt; 100; ++i) {
    unicode[i] =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D ascii[i];
}
</pre>
  </div>
  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 10:44 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
et=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ienne</b> (subscriber, #25256)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642300/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; young white men, which is=
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he=3D3D
 a=3D3D3D
rc=3D3D3D3D
he=3D3D3D3D3D
ty=3D3D3D3D3D3D
pe=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 o=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
f =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
a "real programmer"</font><br>
<p>
In the Free Software world where you should prove yourself writing software=
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 and/or patches and/or code reviews hidden behind an E-mail address, and wh=
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ere your Users recognize you first by your E-mail address, I wonder how you=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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 can get whether the owner of that E-mail is a man/woman, black/yellow/pink=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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 skin, old/young, tall/small, human/cat.<br>
<p>
Obviously some people may want either positive / negative discrimination to=
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 boost them / give a reason for their failure, for instance by adding their=
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 photo or their facebook friend request link, but that is not related to ho=
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w good they are in reading/designing/writing software.<br>
<p>
It is different in the private/industry world where the first thing is an i=
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nterview to see how good you look, and where potential employer won't even =
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check what that E-mail you gave them is related to...<br>
</div>

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  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642325"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:08 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
al=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
an</b> (subscriber, #4018)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642325/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
One could hide ones essential nature and identity behind an email address, =
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but as you work more closely with others you come to know the person behind=
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 the address. Free/Open software developers are also known to have personal=
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 websites where they talk about their work and passions. <br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642331"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 14:08 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
uie</b> (subscriber, #3285)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642331/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    The culture of the project also has an impact even if you can completel=
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y obscure your identity (which I agree is usually impossible anyway). Kate =
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Heddleston's <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://pyvideo.org/video/3491/how=
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in=3D3D3D3D3D
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ng=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
-e=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nvironments-are-killing-dive">PyCon talk</a> and <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=
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ed=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
dleston.com/blog/how-our-engineering-environments-are-killing-diversity-int=
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roduction">associated blog posts</a> are excellent on this - they're target=
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ed at a corporate environment, but it is all applicable to true community p=
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rojects as well.
  </div>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643066"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 10:31 U=
TC=3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>r=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ob=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
be</b> (subscriber, #16131)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643066/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I wonder how you can get =
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of that E-mail is [...]</font><br>
<p>
Do you want to cast doubt on whether Free Software developers are &gt;80% w=
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hite males, because these traits are hard to measure for mere online person=
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alities? Just use sampling. Conference group photos would need to be be mas=
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sively biased -- maybe women, blacks, and cats just don't want to go to con=
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ferences?<br>
<p>
If your point was why this would happen online, there are ways to keep one =
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or more minorities out of a group without actively selecting at the entranc=
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e. Making frequent slurs against jews and blacks in your country club will =
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be almost as effective in keeping them out as checking would-be members' an=
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cestry.<br>
<p>
Finally, we were talking about image, which is formed by what is perceived =
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publicly. While there are a lot of female rock stars, not that many female =
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star programmers have entered the public mind, and when they did, it was us=
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ually as an outlier.<br>
</div>

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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643748"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 0:46 UT=
C =3D
(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
Wo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
l<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (guest, #4433)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643748/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
In order to work on a Free Software project you need to interact. Even in a=
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n email, there are plenty of subtle clues as to your gender, colour, nation=
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ality etc etc.<br>
<p>
We may not be able to consciously recognise those clues, but I bet within a=
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 few emails you will have a good idea of the sort of person you're dealing =
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with, and gender is one of factors that stands out pretty quickly.<br>
<p>
Cheers,<br>
Wol<br>
</div>

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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643754"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 2:51 UT=
C =3D
(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
vi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ro=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #7872)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643754/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Really?  Go ahead, guess my nationality, whatever that means.  _Tons_ of l-=
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k postings to play with.  For bonus points, show me an evidence of any bias=
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 in the same postings, be it conscious or not.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 12:01 =
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koll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642313/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>I have to disagree about the programming talent "myth".  I'm not sur=
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e it's U-shaped, but I've hired quite a few developers in my time and the d=
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ifference in productivity and code quality among them was astounding, even =
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though on paper they all had roughly similar qualifications.

<p>As someone else mentioned, software development is grounded in science a=
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nd engineering, but at the higher level there's a huge component of art.  I=
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t's at this higher level that a very few programmers distinguish themselves=
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.  Think of Fabrice Bellard, for example, or John Ousterhout who have produ=
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ced amazing works of great beauty and inventiveness.

<p>In addition to having the engineering concepts down cold and having a go=
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od creative vision, a really good programmer has to be incredibly disciplin=
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ed.  This is extremely hard for new programmers who've never worked on anyt=
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hing larger than a term project before.

<p>Of course, that doesn't mean to say so-called "average" programmer can't=
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 produce excellent work.  The PostgreSQL project, for example, is amazingly=
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 high quality and all the programmers seem excellent... it doesn't appear t=
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o be driven by one rock-star programmer.  (As far as I know... maybe I'm wr=
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ong...)

<p>In this case, someone must have provided excellent guidance and mentorin=
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g.
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:09 =
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an</b> (subscriber, #4018)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642326/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
The PostgreSQL has multiple rock-star quality developers. They just don't h=
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ave rock-star sized ego.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:42 =
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koll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642329/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p><font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">The PostgreSQL has mult=
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st=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ua=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lity developers. They just don't have rock-star sized ego.</font>

<p>Hmm, ok, cool.  I guess that strengthens my assertion that there are pro=
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grammers who are much better than average.

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 20:40 =
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mith32</b> (subscriber, #72404)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642446/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
But the fact that you thought the postgres developers weren't whatever you =
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feel is a rock-star developer, when they have developed a far more useful, =
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stable, and long-lived product than Qemu and Tcl (and definitely better cod=
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e than some of the early version of qemu - which I had to modify and work w=
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ith at time. Not bad, but not beautiful ;) )..... doesn't help the credibil=
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ity of your evaluations. You seem to be evaluating based on personality and=
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 some nebulous "vision" of what the code should be, not a useful finished p=
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roduct. I could be wrong, but the evidence currently points the other direc=
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tion.<br>
<p>
(yeah, Qemu is neat (and useful at times), and had some clever tricks for t=
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argeting, and an interesting and challenging project, but it's not nearly a=
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s polished as postgres).<br>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642483"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:30 U=
TC=3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642483/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p><font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">You seem to be evaluati=
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n =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ality and some nebulous "vision" of what the code should be, not a useful f=
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inished product.</font>

<p>Not at all.  Tcl is an amazingly beautiful and well-written piece of sof=
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tware.  Try comparing it's C internals with (bleh) Perl's or (yuuuckkk) PHP=
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's.

<p>As for Bellard, I wasn't specifically thinking only of QEMU, but some of=
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 his other amazing hacks like TCC, the JavaScript PC emulator and his recor=
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d-setting (for the time) computation of Pi.

<p>PostgreSQL does happen to be a more useful or at least more widely-used =
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project than the others, but I think their quality is just as high.
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 10:16 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ma=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
thstuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642541/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; his record-setting (for t=
he=3D
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im=3D3D3D
e)=3D3D3D3D
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om=3D3D3D3D3D3D
pu=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ta=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ti=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
on of Pi.</font><br>
<p>
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DA6which was al=
so an =3D
IOCCC =3D3D
submis=3D3D3D
sion.<=3D3D3D3D
br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 11:47 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ds=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
koll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642560/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Yes, so what?  You really have to be an <i>excellent</i> programmer =
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to enter the IOCCC because you have to thoroughly understand the nuances of=
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 good software development so that you can outrageously do the exact opposi=
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te.  Just like you have to be a really good writer to write a successful pa=
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rody.

<p>I think you'll find that the list of IOCCC winners contains a lot of exc=
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ellent programmers.
  </div>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 12:19 =
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ma=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
thstuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
It wasn't meant to be detrimental to the achievement; it's even more impres=
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sive that it was a world record setter *as well as* being IOCCC-quality (he=
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h, now there's a metric I'd like to see for codebases).<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 6:44 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Th=3D3D3D
u)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>e=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ru=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #2753)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642500/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <i>...far more useful, stable, and long-lived product than Qemu ...</i>
<p>
Isn't qemu now effectively immortalized as part of the standard virtualizat=
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ion solution for Linux?

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 18:42 =
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dl=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ang</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642412/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
you also don't need every programmer to be a 'rock star'.<br>
<p>
A real 'rock star' programmer/designer/architect multiplies the effectivene=
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ss of the people around them. They design good stuff (the part that is the =
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art), that can then be implemented (and tests written, and maintained, etc)=
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 by others who are not as good at the art.<br>
<p>
a programmer who is extremely productive when writing their own code, who c=
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an't communicate with others to spread the work and knowledge is a short-te=
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rm asset to the company/project, but a long-term liability because they won=
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't be there forever.<br>
</div>

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:32 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642484/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>In my book, a programmer who cannot communicate effectively with oth=
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ers is by definition not a "rock star" programmer.

<p>Communicating your intent to a computer is the easy part.  Communicating=
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 your software design to other people is far more demanding.
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:29 U=
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<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>m=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
s<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (subscriber, #41272)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642530/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Communicating your intent=
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ut=3D3D3D3D3D3D
er=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 i=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
s =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
the easy part. Communicating your software design to other people is far mo=
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re demanding.</font><br>
<p>
Completely agree. I have zero patience for programmers who claim tests are =
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a sufficient form of documentation. Lots of people seem to think this. Like=
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 a test can express overall architecture design.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643187"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 1:36 UT=
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(T=3D3D
ue=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
 <=3D3D3D3D3D3D
b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sp=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ee=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
dster1</b> (subscriber, #8143)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643187/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I have zero patience for =
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ra=3D3D3D
mm=3D3D3D3D
er=3D3D3D3D3D
s =3D3D3D3D3D3D
wh=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
o =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
cl=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
aim tests are a sufficient form of documentation. Lots of people seem to th=
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ink this. Like a test can express overall architecture design.</font><br>
<p>
That sounds like a good challenge for an anti-obfuscation contest: solve X =
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non-trivial problem and write a test that clearly expresses the overall des=
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ign :)<br>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643248"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 21:04 U=
TC=3D
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Tu=3D3D3D
e)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ro=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nson</b> (subscriber, #4806)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643248/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
How about tests that are also documentation?<br>
<p>
<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.relishapp.com/rspec/rspec-expectati=
on=3D
s/=3D3D
v/=3D3D3D
2-=3D3D3D3D
14=3D3D3D3D3D
/d=3D3D3D3D3D3D
oc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
s/=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
bu=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ilt-in-matchers/expect-change">http://www.relishapp.com/rspec/rspec-expecta=
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=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
tions/v/2-14/...</a><br>
<p>
(personally, I'm against it just because the writing style tends to be awfu=
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l...  but, I've got to admit, the documentation is always up to date and al=
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ways correct...  that's very rare.)<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">60-hour work week</p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 12:03 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ds=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
koll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642314/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Here, I agree completely.  In my company, our developers work 40-hou=
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r weeks.  We don't publish release dates because they're basically arbitrar=
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y and simply pressure developers.  When our release is done, it's released,=
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 and not before, and I do not expect my employees to sacrifice their privat=
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e lives or health for the sake of some arbitrary deadline.
  </div>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">It's not a bell curve...</p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:33 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
he=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lge.bahmann</b> (subscriber, #56804)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642317/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
... but probably rather something resembling a Poisson distribution, and an=
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y full-time professional in the field is definitely already in the tail"ish=
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" portion of that. Does not matter terribly much for the argument, but talk=
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=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ing about averages for this tail is a bit dubious already.<br>
<p>
The article is right that anyones position in this distribution should be r=
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egarded as something meaningless, while actual accomplishments matter, and =
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that the correlation between the former and the latter may be weak. I belie=
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ve that the talent myth is at least partially attributable to an (unconscio=
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us?) narcism that has it exactly backwards: "accomplishments" are secondary=
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 and viewed as a means to demonstrating "awesomeness" (rather than viewing =
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"ability" as a means to "accomplish something"). This may be more poisonous=
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 than the talent myth itself.<br>
<p>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642320"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:34 =
UT=3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
m</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642320/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
This "myth" is a bunch of things, some valid. 60-hour work weeks amount to =
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bad management, for instance.  But the "shortage" of programmers, as of eng=
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ineers, announced every couple of years (for many decades past) is purely c=
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lass warfare.  Offer what programming is worth, and rock-star programmers w=
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ill come pouring in.  Attempts to drive up enrollments are transparent pric=
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e-gouging.  <br>
<p>
Enough women enroll already, along with too many white men who will not be =
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good enough.  Send them home, and the numbers will equalize. The skills nee=
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ded for good programmers don't correlate with skin color, sex, attractivene=
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ss, or personality. We get all kinds. Filter out privilege, and talent surf=
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aces.  You will end up with fewer graduates, but can put more attention int=
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o readying them, and they will do better work.<br>
<p>
I know personally a programmer who produced, on a crash six-month project, =
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as much code as 500 other programmers in the group.  He is humble because h=
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e knows another who produces several times as fast as he does (he says ten)=
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, and wears out two keyboards a year, although at a cost to his health.<br>
<p>
The reason we need the best programmers coding is that bad code has negativ=
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e value. Mix good and bad code and you end up with zero value; maybe positi=
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ve if you're lucky, but just as likely negative.  How many programming proj=
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ects are abandoned every year by otherwise well-run companies?<br>
<p>
Mediocre, and worse, managers can cause much more harm than bad programmers=
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, but it's harder to root them out.  When there's rooting being done, it's =
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as likely as not the bad managers making the decisions.  If you're a good m=
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anager, your hands are full protecting your programmers from the products o=
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f privilege all around you.<br>
</div>

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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 14:58 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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m</b> (subscriber, #49227)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
(where's the frigging +1 button?)<br>
Ooops... caught thinking aloud!<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:00 U=
TC=3D
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Th=3D3D3D
u)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>k=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
le=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ptog</b> (subscriber, #1183)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642435/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
TBH I'm not sure what you mean by class warfare in this context (which clas=
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ses?) but to say there is no shortage is silly. I'm also not sure what you =
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mean by "offering what programming is worth" since programmers seem to be p=
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aid at least twice the average salary so it's not like it's badly paid or a=
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nything.<br>
<p>
But mostly we don't need loads of rock-star programmers. We need the recogn=
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ition in the general population that programming is something that almost a=
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nyone can do. The shortage in programming jobs is not in rock-star programm=
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ers, but in mediocre programmers.<br>
<p>
As for the 60 hours work week thing, I think that's a uniquely American pro=
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blem, for which the solution is: stop doing it. In most of the rest of the =
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world it's illegal to work that many hours so there's the legislative solut=
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ion, but Americans being Americans that won't happen.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 21:39 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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nc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
m</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642575/">Link</a>]
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
In America, instead, it's illegal to punish employers for demanding 60-hour=
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 workweeks -- but only employers of programmers.<br>
<p>
Class warfare? Simple.  Programming is labor with very high product-value. =
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 Artificially inflate the supply of programmers, whether by inflated enroll=
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ment or H1B immigration, and costs (i.e. salaries) plummet. Most people who=
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 graduate with tech degrees don't find work doing it, although chemists and=
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 biologists come off worst.<br>
<p>
High salaries?  Compared to what?  The degree of skill required, and value =
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extracted (not to say "produced") is in the ballpark with other professions=
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, law and medicine.  Periodically we hear warnings about upcoming grave sho=
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rtages of physicians, but there is no H1B program flooding us with doctors =
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and dentists.  Credit the AMA and ADA where due.  Programmers,instead, are =
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singled out as "exempt" from labor protections and tax benefits.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 20:01 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Tu=3D3D3D
e)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ix=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #2304)
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    </p>
    <blockquote>
Periodically we hear warnings about upcoming grave shortages of physicians,=
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 but there is no H1B program flooding us with doctors and dentists.
</blockquote>
That's because doctors and dentists don't greatly benefit from clustering t=
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he way tech does, so there is no Silicon Valley for doctors and dentists ac=
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ting as a giant sucking magnet pulling talented people towards the US (and =
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both Cambridges).
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 0:48 UT=
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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m<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (subscriber, #165)
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Furthermore... In the U.S., today, membership in the "middle class" starts,=
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 in the cheapest housing areas, at something around $120k/yr.  "Average pro=
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grammer salaries" ("exempt", recall, from the right to overtime for those 6=
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0-hour weeks demanded of us), however well you think they compare to the av=
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erage wage, clock in, as you note, well below that.<br>
<p>
The overwhelming majority of programmers cannot even be said to be middle-c=
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lass. What is called low enrollment of women in software training reflects =
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a very pragmatic recognition of realistic prospects.  The anomaly is weirdl=
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y high enrollment by white males, pursuing a myth slightly different from t=
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he one suggested.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 2:10 UT=
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stuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
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So=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DE2=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D80=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3DA6with the p=
overty=3D
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in the=3D3D3D
 US ar=3D3D3D3D
ound $=3D3D3D3D3D
24k, w=3D3D3D3D3D3D
hat is=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 the $=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
100k-w=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ide band up to your middle class number? Wiki says that $30k-$65k is lower =
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middle class and up to around $125k is upper middle class (for a household)=
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. Those numbers seem much more reasonable to me. Not everyone lives in ridi=
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culously priced areas like NYC or the SF Bay area (where $120k might actual=
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ly net you the same as something like $80k in a more reasonable location af=
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ter taking out expected rent and such).<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 4:01 UT=
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
m<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
They used to call that "working class" or, less politely, wage slavery.  Wi=
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kipedia is evidently not a great resource for economic insight.  (Who wrote=
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 that stuff?) Consider your average programmer's salary less house, insuran=
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ce, and car payments.  The lucky ones might inherit a parent's house.  Used=
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 cars are a better value nowadays, fortunately.<br>
<p>
The US used to have a wide swath of middle class voters. They have been lar=
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gely wiped out, very deliberately, by policies instituted in the '70s, supp=
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orted by crushingly effective propaganda methods invented by Edward Bernays=
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 in the '20s.  In their place are people who think they're middle-class bec=
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ause their parents really were, and because politicians and advertisers tel=
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l them they are.  But most are one medical emergency away from homelessness=
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. <br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 7:45 UT=
C =3D
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kl=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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tog</b> (subscriber, #1183)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Consider your average pro=
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am=3D3D
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r'=3D3D3D3D
s =3D3D3D3D3D
sa=3D3D3D3D3D3D
la=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ry=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
 l=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ess house, insurance, and car payments. </font><br>
<p>
Can you give some figures for your area for these things because it's not m=
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aking sense for me. For example around here we're you could buy (what's con=
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sidered here) a large house for $1340 p/m, insurance would be about $250 p/=
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m (for everything, including health) and a car lease perhaps $500 p/m, so a=
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 household earning 60k should have at least 15k income left even after the =
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30% income tax. (Numbers converted from Euros to US$ for easier comparison)=
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.<br>
<p>
I'm guessing it's the health insurance which is expensive, but it'd be nice=
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 if you could provide some actual prices.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; But most are one medical =
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aw=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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 f=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ro=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
m homelessness.</font><br>
<p>
Protip: universal healthcare solves this problem. Really.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 11:43 U=
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</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642826/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
*Would* solve it.  But the insurance lobby in the US is too powerful ever t=
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o allow any such thing, and the propaganda machine is too effective.  The U=
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S is what is called a "managed population" now, routinely voting against it=
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s own interests in favor of the extreme rich. It will only get worse now th=
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at corporate money is "protected speech".<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 12:28 U=
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pfire</b> (subscriber, #26138)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642972/">Link</a>]
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
This sounds pretty desperate, and I'm not sure I can see a solution.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 18:30 U=
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ng</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642900/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
In many of the 'hip' large metro areas, $1300/month may get you a single ro=
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om in someone else's house, or a tiny, survival apartment.<br>
<p>
Car insurance in many of these same places can easily be a couple hundred a=
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 month (assuming a new car and full coverage)<br>
<p>
Health insurance is frequently less than car insurance for a single person =
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(family health insurance paid by one person is more)<br>
<p>
All this adds up and drives the prices of everything else up as well. Groce=
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ries are noticeably more expensive in many of these areas.<br>
<p>
The mega tech companies deciding that they really don't like remote workers=
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, and want everyone to live and work in a few massive complexes helps drive=
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 this. Not only are their employees having to pay these high costs, but eve=
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ryone else in the area does as well (including all the startups)<br>
<p>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;  Protip: universal health=
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roblem. Really.</font><br>
<p>
yeah right. many people who have lived under both systems disagree with you=
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.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 20:29 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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hstuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642924/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
And in this area, $1300 can get you an apartment with a covered, heated gar=
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age and other niceties (like an elevator for moving in). And if you can aff=
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ord the down payment, that's about what a mortgage on a decent house is (wi=
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th good credit). My first apartment was a 3-room attic for ~$500/month (aft=
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er electricity and gas). Car insurance is ~$100/month (for a 2013; the 1989=
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 was ~$60/month mainly due to not having things like ABS, airbags, and othe=
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r safety features), I don't really look at what gets taken out of the paych=
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eck for healthcare, so I can't comment on that. Your numbers are *way* high=
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er than is really necessary in many areas. Again, not everyone lives in NYC=
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 or the Bay area and using it as a baseline for what is "acceptable" across=
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 the entire US is a little absurd.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 20:44 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ng</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642928/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I wasn't even giving Bay area prices. I agree that the cost of living varie=
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s greatly around the country and around the world. Everyone needs to be awa=
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re of this and not think that their local situation reflects how things are=
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 for others (be it the person in Silicon Valley where $120K/year is margina=
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l or the person living somewhere where $60K/year is comfortable)<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 3, 2015 21:42 U=
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lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643032/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
On living under universal healthcare, my experience of NHS Scotland is that=
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 it is absolutely amazing. Makes me want to stay in Scotland, despite the r=
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ain. I'd be scared now to live somewhere without it.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 7, 2015 2:23 UT=
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(T=3D3D
hu=3D3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rd=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sutch</b> (guest, #53)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643493/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
"In the U.S., today, membership in the "middle class" starts, in the cheape=
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st housing areas, at something around $120k/yr."<br>
<p>
Nonsense. I'm a salaried professional and make half that and live, comforta=
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bly, in an area with moderately cheap (but by no means the cheapest) cost o=
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f living. And most of the professionals I know in my area make $50-80k.<br>
<p>
Unless your definition of "middle class" involves owning a mansion and/or t=
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aking annual four-week vacations in Europe, flying first class and staying =
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in luxury hotels, I think your perspective is a wee bit off.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643836"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 10, 2015 8:30 U=
TC=3D
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Su=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
cm=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #165)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643836/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Self deception is never a pretty sight.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 11, 2015 17:27 =
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C =3D3D
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on=3D3D3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
zl=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ynx</b> (subscriber, #2285)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643930/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
There is no self deception here. You're both using different definitions of=
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 "middle class."<br>
<p>
Define your terms.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 12, 2015 17:36 =
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C =3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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da=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
shesy</b> (subscriber, #74652)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/644058/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
It also depends heavily on the state.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 17:43 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
HI=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
GHGuY</b> (subscriber, #62277)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642402/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I'd say nobody needs bad programmers, but average and rock-star programmers=
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 need each other to be productive.<br>
<p>
Average programmers need rock-star programmers because the latter can take =
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their code to the proverbial next level with feedback, suggestions, etc.<br>
The rock-star programmer needs average programmers to get anything done in =
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a sufficient volume.<br>
<p>
In either group, egoless collaboration is the best way of achieving this sy=
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mbiosis.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 17:47 =
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
tp=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
o</b> (subscriber, #25713)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642399/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;  Questions ranged from [.=
..=3D
] =3D3D
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the depth vs. breadth of knowledge (it is part of the myth that people have=
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 to "impossibly know everything about everything", there are roles for both=
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 specialists and generalists), and how to get mediocre programmers to get t=
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he courage to apply for these jobs ("I wish I knew the answer to that").</f=
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ont><br>
<p>
One part of the answer to these two questions is - I feel - the strong tend=
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ency of recruiters to coerce applicants into lying.<br>
<p>
I often see job offerings the likes of:<br>
<p>
    candidate must have 10 years of ReactJS experience<br>
<p>
or:<br>
<p>
    candidate is excited to be on the standby 24*7*52, and work incessantly=
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 until the work is finished for NextBigStartupHypeCompany<br>
<p>
or:<br>
<p>
    candidate is an expert assembler coder on all major CPU architectures, =
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a 3D specialist, has a certificate in space flight and has been head of at =
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least two western states<br>
<p>
I don't doubt there *might* be someone being able to fulfill such requireme=
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nts, but I think such profiles favor dishonesty in every sense (among other=
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s also the "awesome elite programmers"). And it also is promoting burnout, =
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because it sets expectations way too high.<br>
<p>
But maybe I'm blowing this all up because I feel that I'm none special and =
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am defensive because it's very hard to get one of these contracts.  <br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:59 =
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C =3D3D
(W=3D3D3D
ed=3D3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
re=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ubenhwk</b> (subscriber, #75803)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642429/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Average programmers write complex code.<br>
Good programmers write simple code.<br>
Talented programmers make difficult tasks easy.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:24 U=
TC=3D
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u)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
gm=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #49227)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642506/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I would say: Talented programmers can tell when simple or complex code is r=
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equired.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 15, 2015 10:49 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
vi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nster</b> (guest, #88738)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/644635/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
It takes longer to write simple code than complex code. I think most "Rocks=
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tar 10X" programmers are actually just cranking out shoddy prototypes shoe =
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horned into production while capturing all the glory for being the "first t=
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o market". Meanwhile, the rest of us are left cleaning up the mess in order=
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 to make the software manageable and understandable. We're labeled mediocre=
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 because we're actually concerned about producing software that won't requi=
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re half a dozen refactor sessions in order to transform the software into s=
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imple.<br>
<p>
The talent gap exists because quality software takes more time to develop. =
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Programmers get rewarded and praised for accomplishments that are visible t=
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o outsiders. Time to completion is what's immediately visible, not quality.=
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 Quality only becomes apparent down the road after the praise has become a =
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memory and the bonuses are long spent. The praise always goes to the progra=
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mmer who finished first, not the one who finished well.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 5:06 U=
TC=3D
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>T=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
he=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
_Barbarian</b> (subscriber, #48152)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642491/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Running is easier than programming for humans, we have an evolutionary pred=
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isposition to one but not the other.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:42 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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lbrown</b> (subscriber, #359)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Running is easier than pr=
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ns, we have an evolutionary predisposition to one but not the other.</font>=
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<br>
<p>
Depends on the human I guess.<br>
<p>
I always assumed the evolutionary path for "faster running, less thinking" =
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went to horses, while "keep running to a minimum, but use the brain to anal=
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yze and plan" went to humans.<br>
<p>
But maybe I'm just rationalizing the fact that I cannot run, and maybe the =
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real strength that evolution has given humanity is the ability to rationali=
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ze their way to whatever conclusion they want.<br>
<p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 8:23 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642513/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p><font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">"keep running to a mini=
mu=3D
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ut=3D3D3D3D
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se=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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rain to analyze and plan"</font>

<p>It's hard to see how natural selection would have selected for the abili=
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ty to program computers, given that they haven't existed for very long.

<p>The kinds of planning and analyzing selected for by evolution are not ne=
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cessarily the skills needed for computer programming.
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:27 U=
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>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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lbrown</b> (subscriber, #359)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; The kinds of planning and=
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d for by evolution are not necessarily the skills needed for computer progr=
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amming. </font><br>
<p>
Maybe.... but I'm pretty sure that nearly every human is better at programm=
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ing computers than nearly every horse.<br>
<p>
If that isn't evolution then ....<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 11:45 =
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koll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642559/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Saying that humans are better at programming than horses are because=
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 of evolution is ridiculous... it's just a side-effect of other selections,=
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 not an actual selected-for trait.

<p>If you want to see people get really good at programming, sterilise all =
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mediocre or worse programmers. :)  Then wait a few dozen generations and yo=
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u'll see the awesome power of evolutionary selection.
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 22:52 =
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ilbrown</b> (subscriber, #359)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642719/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
I don't think you can realistically divide the traits of an individual or s=
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pecies in those which were selected for and those which weren't.  They are =
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all produced by random chance and selected from (not "by) those which happe=
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ned to survive to procreate.  Any "that was selected for" assessment is a p=
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ost-hoc justification.  Certainly a useful justification, but not a precise=
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 justification.<br>
<p>
I would suggest that "ability to program computers" is not just a side effe=
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ct but a direct consequence of other traits such as ability to think abstra=
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ctly and the ability to learn. (which are my post-hoc summaries of multiple=
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 features of the human experience).<br>
<p>
I don't think evolution is the answer to better programmers.  Evolution has=
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 already done its thing. I think the answer is motivation and education.<br>
<p>
And my personal perspective, based on little to no evidence, is that it is =
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more a case of removing de-motivation and correcting unhelpful habits of th=
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ought than it is about adding more motivation or more thought patterns.<br>
<p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 11:53 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642831/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Neil, you have to be careful about distinguishing between the <i>ori=
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gin</i> of new traits and the <i>survival</i> of those traits in a species.

<p>As you correctly state, new traits are produced completely at random.  H=
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owever, unless those traits improve the survival chances of the individuals=
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 and improve their reproductive success, they are unlikely to persist to su=
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bsequent generations; instead they'll be swamped out my further random fluc=
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tuations.

<p>I do not see how the ability to program computers increased our ancestor=
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s' survival or reproduction chances.  So I can only conclude that the abili=
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ty to program computers developed as a side-effect of some other trait that=
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 <i>did</i> confer an advantage.
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 2, 2015 5:00 UT=
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brown</b> (subscriber, #359)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I do not see how the abil=
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puters increased our ancestors' survival or reproduction chances.</font><br>
<p>
To me, this is a bit like say that the ability of this gazelle to outrun th=
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at leopard couldn't have increased the gazelle's ancestors' survival chance=
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s because those ancestors never had to outrun that leopard (only some ances=
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tor of the leopard).<br>
<p>
No individual (of any species) faces exactly the same set challenges as its=
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 ancestors.  Yet the survival of one set of challenges seems to correlate w=
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ell with the survival of a different set of of challenges.  We humans try t=
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o understand and explain that by identifying similarities between the chall=
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enges, but this is just our post-poc justification.<br>
<p>
In a local museum there is an exhibit about computers called "The Universal=
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 Machine", for what should be obvious reasons.  I would suggest that humani=
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ty is "The Universal Creature" for similar reasons.  We can fly higher, swi=
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m deeper, travel faster than any other animal. We can affect our environmen=
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t in untold ways, repair increasingly many injuries on both the macro and m=
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icro level.<br>
<p>
And it is evolution that has created this ability - not by teaching us how =
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to build aeroplanes, but by giving us a highly flexible brain.  A brain tha=
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t also allows us to program computers.<br>
<p>
You might call that a "side-effect", but in that case the fact that the gaz=
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elle can outrun the leopard is just a "side-effect" of the fact that its pa=
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rent was able to outrun a completely different leopard (... or did it actua=
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lly outrun a completely different gazelle, who unfortunately didn't produce=
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 offspring).<br>
<p>
</div>

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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643094"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 14:54 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643094/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Neil, I think you misunderstand the mechanism of natural selection. =
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 If there are no selection pressures for a certain trait, then it won't be =
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selected for and cannot be expected to become common in the population.  Yo=
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ur example of <i>"side-effect" of the fact that its parent was able to outr=
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un a completely different leopard</i> misses the mark completely: Being abl=
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e to outrun a predator has clear survival advantages, so that trait is like=
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ly to be selected for.  Note that the trait is "being able to outrun a pred=
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ator", not "being able to outrun Jennifer the Leopard, specifically."

<p>When it comes to computers, I think you have it backwards.  Humans evolv=
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ed the ability to reason, plan and communicate (traits which indeed have si=
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gnificant survival advantages) so we invented the computer because that inv=
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ention fit nicely with the brains that <i>we already have as a result of na=
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tural selection.</i>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643096"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 14:58 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
 b=3D3D3D3D3D
y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643096/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Sorry, just reinforcing my last point.  We didn't evolve ears and a =
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nose where they are now to hold eyeglasses.  We invented eyeglasses to fit =
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our faces.  Similarly, we invented computers to fit our brains.

  </div>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643145"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 17:36 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
<b=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
>a=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nd=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rel</b> (subscriber, #5166)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643145/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    In a finite size population, especially a small population, traits are =
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expected to become common in the population solely due to <a href=3D3D3D3D3=
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:/=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_24">genetic drift</a>, with =
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no selection pressure necessary.

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  <p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643160"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 18:44 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643160/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Yes, I know about genetic drift... I have a hard time believing that=
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 human brains are the way they are because of genetic drift.  That seems a =
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bit of a stretch.

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 22:07 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Tu=3D3D3D
e)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ix=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #2304)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Quite. Note that e.g. we did not evolve the ability to do mathematics. We h=
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ave exactly the same innate abilities for numerical manipulation as a vast =
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swath of the animal kingdom: an exact counting mechanism which can instantl=
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y, reliably count up to about four or five, and another mechanism which can=
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 estimate magnitudes on an exponential scale. Both of these abilities are h=
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ighly advantageous, and widespread -- even *honeybees* have them -- but the=
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re is nothing more to this ability. It can't count to ten, and it can't do =
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more than roughly estimate the size of any large group of objects with resp=
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ect to some other such group.<br>
<p>
The ability to do mathematics comes not from this innate numerical ability =
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but is a side-effect of a much more specifically human trait, language -- a=
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nd language almost certainly did *not* evolve to enable us to do mathematic=
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s! Our ability to do mathematics is not an adaptation but an exaptation: a =
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co-option of an existing ability into a different domain. (This, too, seems=
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 to be something humans do especially well, though it could simply be that =
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we can't tell when other animals are doing similar feats of generalization.=
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)<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 6, 2015 3:20 UT=
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esy</b> (subscriber, #74652)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Interesting! I think someone should do more research on dolphins then to se=
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e how good they are in math. So it is not a coincident that learning langua=
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ge and learning math seem to help each other.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 6, 2015 9:29 UT=
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j</b> (subscriber, #341)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Funnily enough, humans actually suck at the exact-counting stuff compared t=
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o at least some of our great ape cousins. Chimpanzees utterly destroy human=
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s at speed and accuracy in exact counting.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 7, 2015 9:22 UT=
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brown</b> (subscriber, #359)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Quite. Note that e.g. we =
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 ability to do mathematics.</font><br>
<p>
That's like saying that we didn't evolve the ability to speak English or Ge=
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rman or any other specific language.  This is obviously true if you use the=
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 word "ability" to mean "knowledge" or "skill" - a thing that can be learnt=
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 or practised and developed.<br>
<p>
But if you use "ability" to mean something encoded in your genes, realised =
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in your brain (and other parts of your body) - then "the ability to do math=
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ematics" is exactly the same ability as "the ability to speak English" or "=
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the ability to design electronic circuits".  Depending on how the ability i=
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s trained and educated it will manifest in different ways, but that doesn't=
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 make it a different (innate) ability.<br>
<p>
Evolution hasn't gifted us with specific skills - it has gifted us with a g=
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eneral ability to develop any skill.<br>
We are born with a brain that knows (nearly) nothing.  We can't even walk!!=
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!  Maybe we can count to 4 or 5, but we have no way to communicate that cou=
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nting.<br>
But we are born with a brain that can learn nearly anything.  That is the a=
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bility that underlies all the others.  That is the real gift that evolution=
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 has granted us.<br>
<p>
Yes, the human brain does seem to have a particular affinity to language.  =
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I suspect that it because the languages we use are tuned (possibly by non-b=
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iological evolution) to the particular abilities of our brains.<br>
<p>
As I reflect on my own thinking process (admittedly an error-prone activity=
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) is see the two key strengths are:<br>
1/ abstraction - the ability to recognize and identify patterns, and then a=
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ssociate all "things" that fit the pattern together.  Very importantly, thi=
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s is recursive so we build patterns of patterns.<br>
2/ memory - both short-term (which gives a sense of time and sequencing) an=
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d long-term with parallel fuzzy-matching for very effective lookup.<br>
<p>
Words, like numbers, are abstractions.  Sentences build on these to create =
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new abstractions.  Their ideal length fits with the length of our short-ter=
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m memory.  The precision (or lack there-of) of words aligns with the fuzzy-=
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matching of our memory access mechanism.<br>
<p>
These same basic tools of abstraction and memory support "natural language"=
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, "mathematical language", computer programming, mechanical design, economi=
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cs, politics, religion, war, etc etc.<br>
<p>
I accept that the ability to solve partial differential equations or to wri=
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te web-apps in Python did not lead to this ability helping my ancestors to =
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survive, but I contend that you cannot point to any one resulting skill tha=
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t did any more than any other.  It was the "generality of ability", not any=
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 specific ability, that let our common ancestors dominate.<br>
<p>
In times past there were more special-purpose VLSI designs than there are t=
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oday.  The general purpose CPU beat them all.... with the possible exceptio=
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n of image rendering, but "graphic chips" may yet turn into the "even more =
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general purpose" processor which conquers today's general purpose processor=
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s. <br>
<p>
*We* are the general purpose processors of the animal world.  We may not ha=
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ve the best numerical co-processor, but we don't need one!<br>
</div>

  </div>
  <p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentReplyButton">
    <form action=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643512/comment" method=3D3D=
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643751"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 1:02 UT=
C =3D
(S=3D3D
at=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
Wo=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
l<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/b> (guest, #4433)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643751/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Yes, the human brain does=
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av=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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rticular affinity to language. I suspect that it because the languages we u=
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se are tuned (possibly by non-biological evolution) to the particular abili=
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ties of our brains.</font><br>
<p>
The particular language is almost certainly non-biological evolution. Studi=
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es of bi-lingual children (ie two parents with different native languages) =
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show that a child's preferred language correlates with abilities associated=
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 with that language.<br>
<p>
The example I am thinking of is that French has strict rules as to where in=
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 a sentence, a leading or trailing consonant may "jump words". English coul=
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dn't care less. So when asked to listen for a given sound at the end of a w=
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ord, a child who prefers English will spot it regardless of whether the con=
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sonant has jumped. A child who prefers French will be slower at spotting it=
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 if the consonant has jumped the "wrong" way. Note that there is no correla=
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tion whatsoever with whether the mother or father has that native language.=
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<br>
<p>
Cheers,<br>
Wol<br>
</div>

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  <p>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643818"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 9, 2015 23:13 U=
TC=3D
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Sa=3D3D3D
t)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>n=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ix=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
</b> (subscriber, #2304)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643818/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <blockquote>
Evolution hasn't gifted us with specific skills - it has gifted us with a g=
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eneral ability to develop any skill.
We are born with a brain that knows (nearly) nothing. We can't even walk!!!=
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</blockquote>

Ah, the blank slate hypothesis again. I don't believe it.
<p>
We are born very early in development, earlier than almost any other non-ma=
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rsupial mammal: this is an unavoidable consequence of our bipedal stance, b=
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ecause we have to be born before our heads get too large to fit through our=
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 mothers' pelvises. Around two years pass after birth before large-scale ne=
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uron growth and streaming in the brain ends. Discount that, and, well, does=
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 a two-year-old know nearly nothing? Hardly.
<p>
And we almost certainly don't have a general ability to develop any skill, =
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not even any cognitive skill, though it is hard to be sure of this because =
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there are no entities known with superhuman cognitive abilities to give us =
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an idea of what we might be missing: but there are certainly a lot of thing=
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s that present-day computers can do that we can't. You can add memory to a =
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computer, but can you learn to expand your short-term memory to 500 chunks?=
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 (No, you can only increase the average size of a chunk over time: we call =
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that process "expertise"). Can you do learn to do mental arithmetic with th=
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e flawless, error-free efficiency, let alone speed, of a computer? No. (Hum=
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an 'computers' had a <i>far</i> higher error rate than the ones we're used =
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to). The list goes on.

<blockquote>
Yes, the human brain does seem to have a particular affinity to language. I=
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 suspect that it because the languages we use are tuned (possibly by non-bi=
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ological evolution) to the particular abilities of our brains.
</blockquote>

If that were all there was to it, pigs, tortoises, and pigeons should have =
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language. They don't (and we can be sure of that, even without knowing what=
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 the putative language might be: the informational complexity of their comm=
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unications is too low).
<p>
It is known that humans have neural machinery specialized for the parsing a=
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nd production of language (more specifically, for, roughly, lexemes and gra=
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mmar). If we had brains optimized for learning any skill, and were using th=
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at ability to learn language, it would seem odd that the same brain regions=
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 serve to handle linguistic ability in all of us: but they do.
<p>
While it is certainly true that human language is optimized to be learned b=
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y human children, this is a selection effect: human children are the rootst=
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ock of language, almost all languages are predominantly learned by them, an=
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d almost all linguistic change comes from them. And they don't learn langua=
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ge in anything like the same way adults do: they can't, they don't have a l=
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anguage to start from. The process of learning a first language is frankly =
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astonishing, and if it were the result of conscious deliberation -- of an '=
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ability to develop any skill', and in humans development of skills is the r=
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esult of repetition, pattern-matching, and conscious effort -- humans would=
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 all be high-ranking geniuses.
<p>
Your just-past-newborn infants, just lying there with a brain that knows ne=
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arly nothing, not even capable of moving by dragging themselves around with=
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 their arms, are parsing phonemes out of the surrounding sound stream (also=
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 distinguishing human voices from background noise), identifying phonemes t=
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hat are considered indistinguishable in the surrounding speakers' languages=
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 and equating them in their own auditory cortices (this is largely complete=
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 by the age of six months) including clustering them so that multiple langu=
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ages with different such rules are correctly differentiated, then identifyi=
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ng and extracting words from the sound stream despite the fact that they do=
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n't know what any of the phonemes mean and the sound stream is, well, a str=
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eam, with little or no separation between the words they don't know anyway.=
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 Only <i>then</i> can they get down to the hard parts of grammar and vocabu=
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lary. The amazing thing to me is that they've not only done all this but al=
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so apparently derived most of the grammar of the language by perhaps the ag=
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e of one and a half, the 'two-word' stage: those two words are far more oft=
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en than chance the two most relevant words, in the correct order, that woul=
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d be chosen from a larger grammatically correct sentence which would expres=
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s what they want to say! To me that says they're thinking that sentence (or=
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 at least have its parse tree in mind, perhaps with a lot of the words miss=
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ing) but just can't speak all of it yet. And I haven't even got into the gr=
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ammatical parts of language acquisition, which have so many incredible feat=
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s all being accomplished simultaneously that I could go on about it all day.
<p>
Conscious thought can't begin to come close to doing this. Among other thin=
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gs, infants clearly <i>aren't</i> thinking consciously about this: if they =
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were, they'd have no time to do anything else! It takes extensive training =
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in field linguistics for a human adult to do this sort of thing: it's extre=
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mely hard and they are much less good at it than human infants, taking many=
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 times longer to do a much worse job (though it is true that they <i>know</=
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i> what they have done, while your average six-year-old knows nothing of th=
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e native grammar she uses so effortlessly). All this stuff just screams unc=
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onscious parallel processing, and when it's happening in essentially all ne=
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wborn infants we can be reasonably certain that that means that this is gen=
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etically determined. We have hardware for learning human languages. (Well, =
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actually, <i>we</i> probably don't, not any more, but we did have it when w=
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e were much younger. There is a critical time window for these things, and =
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we are both long past it.)
<p>
As I understand it, the things we are good at that other animals aren't are=
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 language, speech production (obviously tied to language), fine manipulatio=
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n (i.e. toolmaking: many animals can do this to some extent, including some=
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 of our close relatives), long-distance endurance running, and things deriv=
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ed from those skills. That seems to me to be it for special human wossnames=
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. It's just that language and speech production are <i>hugely useful</i> ab=
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ilities: in the last few thousand years we've been combining them with fine=
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 manipulation (writing) to communicate beyond the bounds of a human lifetim=
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e, which is frankly amazing. If we've got that, I don't see that we <i>need=
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</i> a universal learning machine in our heads that can develop any skill, =
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if such a thing can even exist. Linguistic processing gives us everything w=
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e need.
<p>
If I'm right in this, there may well be lots of skills we intrinsically can=
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't develop. The place to look for them is in those places that don't requir=
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e language, or that require language plus some innate thing we don't have (=
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gills, perhaps, or a lateral line sense, or the ability to detect and manip=
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ulate others' muscles from a distance like an electric eel).
  </div>
  <p>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 10, 2015 9:45 U=
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lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643839/">Link</a>]
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    <blockquote><i>Can you do learn to do mental arithmetic with the flawle=
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ss, error-free efficiency, let alone speed, of a computer? No.</i></blockqu=
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ote>
<p>
Hell, we can't even learn to count as fast and accurately as a chimpanzee c=
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an! Same architecture as us!
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 11, 2015 6:03 U=
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lbrown</b> (subscriber, #359)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643860/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Wow.  Thanks for your thoughtful reply!<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Ah, the blank slate hypot=
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t><br>
<p>
"blank" is more extreme than I would claim - I probably should not have hid=
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den those "nearly"s in parentheses.   We still have vestigial instinct such=
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 as fight-or-flight.  But I maintain that we have much more potential abili=
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ty than practical ability.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;  We are born very early i=
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lier than almost any other non-marsupial mammal</font><br>
<p>
Good point.  I hadn't thought about that.  I'll withdraw the "can't even wa=
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lk" quip.<br>
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<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Discount that, and, well,=
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ld know nearly nothing? Hardly. </font><br>
<p>
Is the knowledge of a 2 year old nature or nurture?  Doubtlessly both.  We =
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probably lean in different directions on the question of proportion.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; but there are certainly a=
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t present-day computers can do that we can't</font><br>
<p>
Two responses to this:<br>
1/ A thing can be very large and still have limits.  I want to emphasize ho=
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w large the range of possible learned abilities is.  You respond by saying =
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there are limits.  I agree there are limits, I still think the range of lea=
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rnable abilities is larger than we know.<br>
<p>
2/ But we *did* do those things.  We (humanity, not you and me personally) =
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built the tools that perform the calculations.  Our brains are so versatile=
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, they allow us to do things that our brains cannot do themselves.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Your just-past-newborn in=
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ing phonemes out of the surrounding sound stream </font><br>
<p>
Amazing, isn't it?!?!  Processing incoming sensory information, finding pat=
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terns, and patterns in patterns, and pattern in patterns in patterns.   Thi=
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s is fundamental to how we think and learn and it starts very early.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; To me that says they're t=
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nce (or at least have its parse tree in mind, perhaps with a lot of the wor=
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ds missing) but just can't speak all of it yet.</font><br>
<p>
To me, that says that several of the important concepts are forming and dif=
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ferentiating from other concepts.  Most of it - ideas, label, structure - i=
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s still fuzzy, but a few bits are clear enough to be worth reproducing and =
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to be recognised when they are produced.  Not sure if that is the same as w=
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hat you  are thinking.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Conscious thought can't b=
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 to doing this.</font><br>
<p>
Oh, absolutely.  Conscious thought is only one little part of thinking.  Co=
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nscious thought requires (thinking aloud here...) language.  It requires th=
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ose labels to apply to concepts so we can store them more efficiently and m=
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anipulate them more precisely.<br>
<p>
Other thinking still happens, but it is harder to watch or to talk about.  =
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We call it intuition or hunches or "gut feelings" or taste etc etc. Such th=
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inking is very important but it is also very unreliable.  It is very hard t=
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o introspect our hunch to check the justification.<br>
<p>
I think many of us tend to suppress our intuition for that reason.  Finding=
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 a good balance where we don't suppress our hunches, but don't trusted them=
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 too much either, is not easy.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Linguistic processing giv=
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e need.</font><br>
<p>
I wonder what exactly you mean by "linguistic processing".  Earlier you see=
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med to differentiate mathematics from language.  If your definition of "lin=
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guistic processing" maintains that differentiation, that I think there is m=
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uch more to how I, at least, think and the practical value that I get from =
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my brain than just "linguistic processing".<br>
Even if you do include mathematics,  there is the whole realm of "subconsci=
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ous thought" which doesn't seem in any way linguistic yet still brings valu=
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e to the individual and the species.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; plus some innate thing we=
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, perhaps, or a lateral line sense,</font><br>
<p>
A question for philosophers: can a blind person learn to recognize "blue"?<=
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br>
Obviously they never will, but would their brain be able if the sensory inp=
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ut was there?<br>
<p>
There is no doubt that the range and acuity of our sensory input is critica=
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l to what we can learn about our environment - you cannot work with that yo=
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u cannot perceive.  That doesn't mean that the brain does not have the abil=
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ity to learn some skill, just that it has not the opportunity.<br>
<p>
I recall at University talking to a Pure Mathematics professor who claimed =
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that felt he had a (limited) ability to "think" in 4 dimensions, because th=
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at was related to his area of interest and research and with ongoing practi=
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ce he found the manipulations easier - less linguistic, more intuitive.  As=
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 humans we have incredible imagination.  Sometimes it can provide input to =
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our brain beyond physical senses, and give us the opportunity gain mental a=
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bilities that are "out of this world".  Sometimes there are more things "dr=
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eamt of in your philosophy" than there are "in heaven and earth, Horatio"<b=
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r>
<p>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 11, 2015 15:05 =
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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x</b> (subscriber, #2304)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643890/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Wow. Thanks for your thou=
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ul=3D3D3D
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ep=3D3D3D3D3D
ly=3D3D3D3D3D3D
!<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/f=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
on=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
t><br>
<p>
I wrote it and then thought 'oh crap, this is both offtopic and pointless r=
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ambling and also teaching Neil to suck eggs'. Nice to see I was being exces=
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sively paranoid!<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; We still have vestigial i=
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su=3D3D3D3D3D
ch=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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s =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
fi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ght-or-flight.</font><br>
<p>
I'm firmly of the believe that 'instinct' is a nearly meaningless category.=
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 All our neurons are placed into their final resting places by a feedback l=
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oop between genes and cellular microenvironment: many of them also include =
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a feedback loop between cell and *external* environment (including those in=
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volved in things you'd think didn't, such as vision). Mammals have almost p=
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rotean developmental pathways. Some of the behaviours encoded by those neur=
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ons are not very variable after they are established (e.g. heartbeat regula=
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tion). Others are more variable. It's a continuous gradation, not a divisio=
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n into enumerable "instincts" and "everything else". Elephants have to lear=
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n how to use their trunks with delicacy from other elephants: does that mea=
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n it's not an instinct? Even if it does, that surely doesn't mean we could =
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learn to do the same thing!<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Is the knowledge of a 2 y=
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nurture? Doubtlessly both.</font><br>
<p>
The division is meaningless. The neural architecture of an unborn child six=
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 months in the womb is both nature and nurture (the neurons don't develop w=
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ithout environmental input, some internally generated and some from things =
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like sound leaking through the womb wall). The architecture of a week-from-=
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conception female child is both nature and nurture (which X is inactivated =
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in which cell? What DNA methylation patterns are established? Hugely signif=
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icant for all of future development, and more or less random with some envi=
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ronmental influence.)<br>
<p>
Asking 'nature or nurture' is like saying 'this computer has really good ha=
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rdware! Therefore its software must be pathetic, because its hardware does =
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everything.' In reality, having more hardware often means the software too =
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must be more complex: in biology, being a more complex organism often means=
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 that your relationship with your environment, and the regulatory networks =
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it controls, just get more complex. We are a long way from getting to the b=
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ottom of this. Hell, in the last few years entire new *classes* of regulato=
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ry network have been uncovered...<br>
<p>
Clearly some things (e.g. your knowledge of your mother's name) are strongl=
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y environmentally influenced, but even they will be the result of environme=
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nt acting on neurons, changing their gene expression, and feeding back. Whe=
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n all of memory is like this, and so are most things that aren't memory, 'n=
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ature or nurture' really means very little. The most you can ask is 'is thi=
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s behaviour variable across the population, and does it vary widely in clos=
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ely related individuals' -- but that doesn't mean it's 'nurture not nature'=
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, it means it's nature with complex environmental responses.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; 2/ But we *did* do those =
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We=3D3D3D3D3D
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ty, not you and me personally) built the tools that perform the calculation=
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s. Our brains are so versatile, they allow us to do things that our brains =
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cannot do themselves.</font><br>
<p>
In that case it's impossible to ask whether there are things we cannot lear=
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n: if we encounter such a thing, we'll never know it's even there since we =
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cannot learn of its existence. Therefore you have taken the question of the=
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 range of human mental capacity outside the realm of science.<br>
<p>
It is still clear that we can't learn *anything*: there are lots of unsolve=
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d questions in mathematics that we don't know the answer to because we have=
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 no way to work it out, or because working it out is intractable. Much of t=
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he last century of science (computer science in particular) has been the st=
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ory of the discovery of new limits: I strongly suspect that such limits exi=
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st in the human mind as well, simply because there is no reason for evoluti=
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on to have selected for a universal thinking machine when something simpler=
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 and likely less energy-hungry would do (energy expenditure and heat dissip=
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ation are *major* constraints on human evolution, and the brain is a huge e=
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nergy suck). Why would a generalist hunter/gatherer/scavenger on the Africa=
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n savannah evolve a brain capable of literally anything?<br>
<p>
(It is definitely clear that in the domain of language we do a lot via meta=
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phors and the like, often frozen into customary forms by centuries of use t=
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o such a degree that we don't even recognise them as metaphors any more. To=
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 me, this says that we *do* have cognitive limits, but that language at lea=
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st sometimes helps us end-run around them. Even there, we can't handle ever=
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ything: there are a lot of not especially complex grammatically valid lingu=
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istic structures that we just can't parse because of apparent arbitrary lim=
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its. A universal thinking machine would not have a limit of at most three o=
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n the number of centre-embeddings it could handle!)<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Processing incoming senso=
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ti=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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, =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
fi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
nding patterns, and patterns in patterns, and pattern in patterns in patter=
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ns. This is fundamental to how we think and learn and it starts very early.=
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</font><br>
<p>
Except we *can't do that* for anything but language, and we can't do that c=
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onciously. We find patterns, yes, but in a conscious, linear fashion: we ca=
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n't listen to a massive blur of sound and do all this extraction work witho=
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ut thinking about it except when a very young child in the critical languag=
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e-learning window. This is hardwired behaviour -- or, in the form I describ=
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e above, neurons predetermined to respond to environmental input (usually a=
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uditory) by doing this massive set of pattern-matches.<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I wonder what exactly you=
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st=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ic processing". Earlier you seemed to differentiate mathematics from langua=
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ge. If your definition of "linguistic processing" maintains that differenti=
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ation, that I think there is much more to how I, at least, think and the pr=
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actical value that I get from my brain than just "linguistic processing".</=
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font><br>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Even if you do include ma=
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s,=3D3D3D3D3D
 t=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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s the whole realm of "subconscious thought" which doesn't seem in any way l=
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inguistic yet still brings value to the individual and the species.</font><=
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br>
<p>
Mathematics has language as a prerequisite, if you will: its foundation is =
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the concept of a number line which is not only geometric but has numbers sp=
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aced regularly along it. Those numbers are linguistic entities, and in lang=
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uages spoken by cultures with advanced mathematics are recursive combinator=
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ial entities obeying a grammar (you can build a word for any number you lik=
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e). Whether mathematics has *other* prerequisites is hard to say: no other =
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animal has this prerequisite, and as far as we know no other animal has any=
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thing like the field of mathematics. (As opposed to, say, the sort of uncon=
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scious stuff you do when catching a ball, which is mathematics *implemented=
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 by neurons* rather than mathematics you think about. Almost everything ali=
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ve has that sort of mathematics encoded in it somewhere, even bacteria, but=
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 that doesn't mean they can do mathematics in the sense we mean here.)<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; A question for philosophe=
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rson learn to recognize "blue"?</font><br>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Obviously they never will=
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brain be able if the sensory input was there?</font><br>
<p>
This has been tested in people blind from birth due to cataracts: yes they =
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can, but they don't seem to have good outcomes due to just not being able t=
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o handle the flood of visual information as easily as we can: they can see,=
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 but it's difficult to make sense of the scene as a whole and they get over=
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whelmed very easily. It seems likely that a lot of the visual cortex either=
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 hasn't developed properly in such people, has been excessively trimmed due=
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 to inactivity or has been repurposed for auditory purposes (very common in=
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 blind people, as well as deaf people the other way: early parts of the aud=
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itory and visual signal processing pathways use very similar algorithms and=
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 very similar patterns of neural organization, so are easy to repurpose).<b=
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r>
<p>
Again here we see the faultiness of the term 'instinct'. Visual processing =
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is a vastly complex pile of neural machinery carrying out at least hundreds=
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 and quite possibly thousands of distinct tasks, with all sorts of environm=
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ental feedbacks in its development (from autogenerated test patterns on the=
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 retina in the womb, through to matching of corresponding points on the ret=
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inae of both eyes for stereo-vision development in a critical window in inf=
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ancy, and doubtless more that is not yet known). It is reused by all sorts =
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of things you might not expect to use it (e.g. remembering a visual scene a=
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nd visual imagination both feed into the visual cortex 'backwards', and you=
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 can even guess at what's being imagined if you spy on the right parts of t=
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he cortex; if your visual cortex is lost, you can no longer remember what c=
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olours are or what things looked like). Things that were believed to be lar=
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gely hardwired, like synaesthesia, have recently been discovered to be envi=
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ronmentally influenced: some people with colour/letter synaesthesia have co=
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lour/letter correspondences matching those in a particular Fisher-Price pla=
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stic letter set. Even conscious thought ripples down into the early visual =
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cortex down feedback loops: this has been tested with the Necker cube, wher=
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e you can lean to flip your perception of the cube by thinking about it, an=
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d when you do about 10% of the neurons in the earliest regions of the visua=
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l cortex flip with it.<br>
<p>
So, is vision an instinct, given that a lot of it is hardwired? Is it thous=
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ands of instincts? Is it learned, given that you can easily break quite a l=
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ot of it through environmental deprivation, that things like synaesthesia a=
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re influenced by the colours of plastic letter sets, and that conscious tho=
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ught can directly affect the activity of neurons in even the most fundament=
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al parts of the visual cortex? It is both. It is neither. It is more comple=
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x than that. (This is biology. *Everything* is "more complex than that". Th=
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ere's a reason a lot of old-time hackers have gone into biology now -- it s=
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atisfies their desire for crazy levels of complexity! :) )<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor644720"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 16, 2015 4:11 U=
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ei=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lbrown</b> (subscriber, #359)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/644720/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
There are a few points in your very interesting treatise that I'm tempted t=
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o drill down into, but I should probably go off and do my own reading inste=
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ad.<br>
<p>
The thing that particularly stands out for me (and which I think I can make=
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 relevant) is that you present a highly reductionistic view.  You focus on =
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the details and deny (some aspects of) the big picture (there is no beauty =
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in the Mona Lisa, only brush strokes).<br>
<p>
I certainly agree there is no bright line between "instinctive" and "learnt=
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" behaviours, but nor do I find the distinction completely useless.  There =
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is a continuum, and by naming the endpoints it makes it easier to talk abou=
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t them.<br>
<p>
I seem to think of brain activity at a more abstract level than you present=
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 it.  This is neither right nor wrong, just different.  One of the (I claim=
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) particular abilities of the human brain is to work at different levels of=
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 abstraction.   I do a little volunteer teaching and "youth group" type wor=
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k.  Primary school children (up to about 12 years) are *very* concrete thin=
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kers.  I try to present abstract ideas and  I'm lucky when one gets through=
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.  Concrete stories are easily remembered.<br>
Just a couple of years later, they are making the leaps to abstract implica=
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tions  themselves.  But going beyond two or three levels seems to take focu=
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sed training.  Dan Myers and others talk a lot about the "abstraction ladde=
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r" which is particularly helpful for maths.  <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"h=
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ey=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
er=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
.com/2012/loa-the-ladder-of-abstraction-part-one-of-probably-a-lot/">http:/=
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/blog.mrmeyer.com/2012/loa-the-ladder-of-abstractio...</a><br>
<p>
I think that a key part of competence with software (that's where we starte=
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d, isn't it?) is the ability to move up and down the abstraction levels com=
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fortable.  To know that the brain is about chemicals and about neurons and =
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about perceptions and about ideas and about paradigms.   Or to be able to t=
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hink about cachelines and stack foot print, and about interface design and =
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maintainability, and everything between and outside these points.<br>
<p>
I believe that I was trained in this from an early age by my father who lov=
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ed to play with words and mis-interpret things whenever possible.  In doing=
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 so he taught me the difference between "words" and "meaning" and important=
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ly that there *is* a difference.  Each level of abstraction is valuable, bu=
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t it is important to be able to tell them apart and not believe that any on=
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e is "right".<br>
<p>
Edsger Dijkstra touched on this 27 years ago:<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;By evoking the need for de=
ep=3D
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ce=3D3D3D3D
pt=3D3D3D3D3D
ua=3D3D3D3D3D3D
l =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
hi=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
er=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
archies, the automatic computer confronts us with a radically new intellect=
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ual challenge that has no precedent in our history.</font><br>
<p>
<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/=
EW=3D
D1=3D3D
0x=3D3D3D
x/=3D3D3D3D
EW=3D3D3D3D3D
D1=3D3D3D3D3D3D
03=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
6.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ht=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ml">https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD...</a><br>
<p>
Still very relevant.<br>
<p>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 23:26 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(T=3D3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
jw=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
arnica</b> (subscriber, #27492)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642727/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Evolution is just a side-effect of randomness, so any discussion about goal=
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-oriented evolution is broken, full stop.<br>
<p>
That said, since humans developed language, the ability to learn, and teach=
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, the ability to construct abstract solutions to general problems followed =
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naturally.<br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor642830"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 11:51 U=
TC=3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
sk=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642830/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>Evolution is certainly <em>not</em> goal-oriented.  However, a trait=
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 that does not improve survival (or more importantly, improve the chance of=
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 reproduction and survival of progeny) will certainly not be selected for.

<p>I really cannot see how an ability to program computers could possibly h=
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ave improved the chances of survival of our ancestors.
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 18:22 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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>d=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
la=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ng</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642899/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I really cannot see how a=
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to=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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am computers could possibly have improved the chances of survival of our an=
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cestors. </font><br>
<p>
the ability to program is a combination of the abilities to logically thing=
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 through the problem, break it down into what needs to be done, and communi=
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cate those steps unambiguously to others.<br>
<p>
what about those abilities wouldn't help survival?<br>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643093"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 14:50 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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oll</b> (subscriber, #1630)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643093/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <p>What you are saying is reinforcing my point: The ability to program =
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computers is a <i>side effect</i> of traits that were selected for reasons =
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having nothing whatsoever to do with computers.
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 13:14 =
UT=3D
C =3D3D
(T=3D3D3D
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afrir</b> (subscriber, #11501)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/642569/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    Off-topic: Humans are rather poor short-distance runners but are actual=
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ly <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports=
_n=3D
ut=3D3D
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2/=3D3D3D3D3D
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distance_running_and_evolution_why_humans_can_outrun_horses_but_can_t_jump_=
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higher_than_cats_.html">evolutionally adapted to long-distance runs</a>.
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 3, 2015 22:01 U=
TC=3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
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    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
And not just adapted to, but extra-ordinarily well-adapted to it. Humans ar=
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e wonders of the land mammal world when it comes to physical endurance. I'm=
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 not sure, but I think only dogs and wolves come anywhere near close - also=
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 often "run to exhaustion" hunters - but with enough distance we can easily=
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 exhaust them too.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 3, 2015 21:46 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
Su=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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>p=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
au=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
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Note that humans can run horses to death, and pretty much all other land ma=
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mmals too.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 4:26 UT=
C =3D
(M=3D3D
on=3D3D3D
) =3D3D3D3D
by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ma=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
th=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
stuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
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It's because we regulate temperature by sweating rather than panting. While=
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 running, quadrupeds have to link their stride with their breathing (since =
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the ribcage also has to participate in the running motion) and eventually r=
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each a point where their muscle fatigue cannot keep their pace moving fast =
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enough to breathe fast enough to cool down. With sweating, cooling is not l=
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inked to breathing and coupled with bipeds not needing to link breathing wi=
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th gait, overheating is not as much of an issue.<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 5:10 UT=
C =3D
(M=3D3D
on=3D3D3D
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by=3D3D3D3D3D
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b>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
Cy=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
be=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rax</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #52523)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
And we also can carry water. A waterskin is a surprisingly ancient inventio=
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n - even older than fire.<br>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 14:10 U=
TC=3D
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Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ir=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
o</b> (subscriber, #7872)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Evidence, please?  We see very definite use of fire by about 0.1Mya; it alm=
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ost certainly had been in use for longer than that, but even without going =
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into more, er, optimistic claims, where have you seen a waterskin older tha=
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n 1e5 years?  I'm not saying that it's impossible (preservation in a bog, p=
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erhaps, or indirect evidence like stoppers), but all examples I've heard ab=
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out are considerably more recent...<br>
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 23:23 U=
TC=3D
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Mo=3D3D3D
n)=3D3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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yb=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
erax</b> (<b>&#x272D; supporter &#x272D;</b>, #52523)
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There are water corks from about the same period.<br>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 23:54 U=
TC=3D
 (=3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ir=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
o</b> (subscriber, #7872)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
At 100Ky?  Do you have a reference?  The ones I've heard about were at most=
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 50Ky and the same horizons had clear indications of fire use (bones with s=
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igns of cooking, etc.)<br>
<p>
In any case, it's getting really off-topic for lwn, so it might be better i=
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f you replied by email...<br>
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 10:23 U=
TC=3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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au=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
lj</b> (subscriber, #341)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Crafted stone tools go back 1.5 Mya+. If you can make a finely-crafted hand=
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-axe, you can make a scraper. That's enough technology to make a water bag =
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from animal skin and connectivity tissue: scrape a piece of skin clean, gre=
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ase and cure it, tie a neck together with dried connective tissues. Won't b=
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e water-tight, but it's something.<br>
<p>
Genetic studies of human lice suggest clothing was worn at least 100 kya ag=
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o. If you can make clothes, you can definitely make waterbags.<br>
<p>
So the tooling technology needed to make waterbags exists 1.5 Mya, and we w=
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ere making more sophisticated (and probably more abstract in function, give=
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n the hot conditions) items by 100 kya. It seems like to me.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 8:24 UT=
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pa=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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j</b> (subscriber, #341)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643061/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Yes indeed, we're pretty well adapted to working in heat. Hence the sparse,=
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 fine hair (except on the head) and the profuse sweating. Presumably, our b=
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rains being large enough to realise we can clean animal skins and tie them =
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up (using connective tissue of same animal, if nothing else) to make a wate=
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rbag we can carry allowed us to go even further down that evolutionary path=
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.<br>
<p>
We're amazing animals when it comes to endurance. Sad how so few humans exe=
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rcise this ability anymore though. ;)<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted Apr 30, 2015 15:26 =
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itty_one_each</b> (subscriber, #28989)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;The tech industry is rife =
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m,=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ac=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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m, homophobia, and discrimination.</font><br>
<p>
There are people. These problems are people problems, not pursuant to the t=
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ech industry as such.<br>
We get the meritocracy we honestly pursue.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 1:08 UT=
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ore</b> (subscriber, #75)
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    <blockquote>There are people. These problems are people problems, not p=
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ursuant to the tech industry as such.</blockquote>

<p>Some industries try to overcome those kinds of people problems by recrui=
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ting from neglected groups, encouraging people to understand and value dive=
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rsity, and punishing anti-social jerks who want to perpetuate discriminatio=
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n.  Other industries ignore those people problems, promote anti-social jerk=
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s, and allow the bigots to drive neglected groups out of the workforce.  Wh=
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ich one do you think better describes the tech industry?
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 1, 2015 1:13 UT=
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ty_one_each</b> (subscriber, #28989)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
It's one thing to be in a publicly traded company, subject to laws, e.g. OS=
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HA. Actual business models; quarterly reporting: skin in the game.<br>
It's another to be hanging out and socializing, where unfortunate jacking a=
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round is challenging to address other than with peer pressure.<br>
Thus, I'm not sure the comparison is a fair one.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 17:52 U=
TC=3D
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Mo=3D3D3D
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y =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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im=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
osx</b> (subscriber, #24338)
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    <i>talent</i> is a notion that comes from the really olden times, those=
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 times when upper-class people used to think that all sort of traits of you=
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r parents are genetically hereditary to their offspring.

It was a convenient notion and helped those in power to remain in power.=3D=
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20

They even believed that if previous generations spoke a certain language, t=
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hen the knowledge of that language became somehow genetically imprinted in =
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the new generations. See this story about an experiment around 640BC, http:=
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//www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100351903

Even in more modern times were curious about a possible genetic imprinting =
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of a trait. Some more recent experiments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan=
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guage_deprivation_experiments

It appears that this <i>talent</i> notion has been used as a tool to dissua=
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de others from encroaching into established privileges.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 4, 2015 18:19 U=
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hstuf</b> (subscriber, #69389)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643157/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
Hmm. I consider that "innate talent" rather than just "talent". There certa=
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inly is some predisposition to picking up a topic (e.g., "she has a knack f=
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or it") which can be seen with mathematical, artistic, and musical prodigie=
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s, but I think that "talent" is more of a "how good is someone at picking u=
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p something new in a field" kind of thing; nothing genetic. Maybe this is a=
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n American vs. European thing (I'm American)?<br>
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<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643191"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 8:27 UT=
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sx</b> (subscriber, #24338)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; I think that "talent" is =
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"h=3D3D3D3D3D3D
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d is someone at picking up something new in a field" kind of thing; nothing=
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 genetic.</font><br>
<p>
I think that, when probed, most people would take it as a genetic issue.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 5, 2015 8:14 UT=
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sx</b> (subscriber, #24338)
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    </p>
    (i messed up the formatting in the previous post; reapplying formatting=
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 and added a bit more context)

<i>talent</i> is a notion that comes from the really olden times, those tim=
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es when upper-class people used to think that all sort of traits of your pa=
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rents are genetically hereditary to their offspring. It was a convenient no=
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tion, it <i>looked right</i> and helped those in power to remain in power. =
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<p>
They even believed that if previous generations spoke a certain language, t=
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hen the knowledge of that language became somehow genetically imprinted in =
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the new generations. See this story about an experiment around 640BC, <a hr=
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ef=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/auth=
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51903">http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100=
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351903</a>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
<p>
Even in more modern times were curious about a possible genetic imprinting =
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of a trait. Some more recent experiments: <a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http=
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ia=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
.o=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
rg/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan=
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guage_deprivation_experiments</a>
<p>
It appears that this talent notion has been used as a tool to dissuade othe=
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rs from encroaching into established privileges.
<p>In terms of free/open-source software, it is important to get more peopl=
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e activated and participating in all ways possible.
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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 6, 2015 8:42 UT=
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NA=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
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/b> (subscriber, #1313)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643295/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    There <B>are</B> talents that are hereditary. 23 out of the best 25 tim=
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es for 10000m men's running are by athletes born in East Africa. Out of the=
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 74+ male athletes who run 100m under 10 seconds, only four of them are not=
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 descended from West Africa. Traits like height, color of eye, hair, etc. a=
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re hereditary. It's an obvious (but not necessary correct) assumption that =
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other traits like intelligence are hereditary too.
<P>
Of course, there are talents that only seem to be hereditary, but passed fr=
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om generation to generation by being able to access certain resources (enou=
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gh food, education, etc.).
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">The programming talent myth</=
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    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 6, 2015 9:31 UT=
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j</b> (subscriber, #341)
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    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
On the long distance running thing, it is not clear if it is genetic. My ba=
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sic understanding from some people who study performance in that area is th=
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ere are also potentially cultural and socio-economic factors that could exp=
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lain the dominance of east Africans.<br>
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  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">Congratulations on all the bi=
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  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 7, 2015 12:35 U=
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ndstr</b> (guest, #60862)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643541/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
For anyone wondering, here's the crucial "lynchpin of illogic":<br>
<p>
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt;But, if you could measure =
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ra=3D3D3D
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g =3D3D3D3D3D3D
ab=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
il=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
it=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
y somehow, its curve would look like the normal distribution.</font><br>
<p>
Given such an admitted foundation of outright vacuity, the entirety of this=
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 article's thrust falls down. This is only fair given its tie-ins to the de=
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structive populist big-lie narratives of "tech industry Problems", the earl=
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ier "not including $FEATURE is oppression"[0], and the contemporary "white =
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men in their thirties (i.e. Babylon)". With the current media saturation of=
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 these narratives it's not surprising that self-admittedly lesser talents w=
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ould buy into them hook-line-and-sinker, especially when keynote visibility=
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 is at stake.<br>
<p>
This is after Occam's razor, mind. The less charitable reading is that of t=
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he crab bucket: mediocrities attempting to tear their betters down to eleva=
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te themselves, as though the current gurus got where they're at through pol=
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iticking, advocacy, and racist-sexist name-calling; and not from diligent d=
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ecades-long study and application to concrete merit.<br>
<p>
Indeed, this is what those who've got no merit would do: claim that it is i=
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rrelevant, and that they're entitled to the same professional respect and c=
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ourtesy as those who aren't outright parasites. As wiser people have said b=
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efore me: they attack a straw-man of meritocracy because they know that the=
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y have no merit, but would still like to rule.<br>
<p>
[0] this one in particular got so pervasive that it got even rms' attention=
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; viz. <a rel=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"nofollow" href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"http=
s://=3D
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org/=3D3D3D3D
phil=3D3D3D3D3D
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mper=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
fect=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
ion-isnt-oppression.html">https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/imperfection-isnt-=
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oppressi...</a><br>
</div>

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<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"Comment">

<a name=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommAnchor643548"></a>
<div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBox">
  <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentTitle">Congratulations on all the bi=
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e<=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
/p>
  <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentBody">
    <p class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"CommentPoster">Posted May 7, 2015 13:17 U=
TC=3D
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e</b> (editor, #205)
       [<a href=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"/Articles/643548/">Link</a>]
    </p>
    <div class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"FormattedComment">
<font class=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D"QuotedText">&gt; Given such an admitted fo=
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f =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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ht vacuity, the entirety of this article's thrust falls down.</font><br>
<p>
Did you read the article or just look for things in it to support your worl=
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dview?<br>
<p>
This is an article about a keynote given by Jacob Kaplan-Moss at PyCon.  Yo=
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u may have arguments with what he said (it appears you do) but the *article=
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* is simply reporting on that talk.<br>
<p>
I saw the Reddit comments that attributed all of this to me, but, like you,=
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 they apparently didn't read the article either.<br>
<p>
But perhaps the elite crabs are too busy to actually understand what they c=
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riticize.<br>
<p>
sheesh!<br>
<p>
jake<br>
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